[gpdriver17]

Originally Posted by KoenG

OP has an M5 with the HP75. They replaced it with the 76 which has stronger solenoids to assure trouble free 1st to 2nd shifts under full load. The 75 is not able to cope with the S63 launches.

But limeypride has the 76 in his M8 and said it still has a limiter.

How is it legal to sell a car that limits its performance after a while? They shouldn't be allowed to advertise/sell the car one way, then let it detune itself to prevent warranty issues when you use it.

[SigForLife]

Do we know of any mechanics, preferably a BMW mechanic, who would verify this issue? If so, I could maybe be convinced to take it as a class action.

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by gpdriver17

But limeypride has the 76 in his M8 and said it still has a limiter.

How is it legal to sell a car that limits its performance after a while? They shouldn't be allowed to advertise/sell the car one way, then let it detune itself to prevent warranty issues when you use it.

I'am only stating that when you have the 75, it's not an isolated issue and it's mechanical from nature. Especially with a JB4 which ups the torque, chances are real you run into this kind of behaviour during 1st to 2nd shifts in LC.

I can also imagine that 76 transmissions can have (other?) failure modes that have negative effect on the launch. And of course, there might indeed be a counter on the number of LCs. Although, IMHO, that feels a bit like a scam from BMW.

It's difficult to diagnose that the root cause of a reduced LC function is the same for both cars here.

[AHall]

I will probably never use launch control. But some cars have limits on the number of times you can do launch until the car recovers. Does not seem logical the system would allow you to continue to do it if you are headed for damage.

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by AHall

I will probably never use launch control. But some cars have limits on the number of times you can do launch until the car recovers. Does not seem logical the system would allow you to continue to do it if you are headed for damage.

When you can damage the car by using a build in function, it means that the car is not designed to cope with it. Then they should have made the internals stronger. You can probably also launch a Toyota Yaris in 4 seconds to 60...once before it blows, but I don't think Toyota will have a dash mounted button for it installed.

[gpdriver17]

Originally Posted by KoenG

I'am only stating that when you have the 75, it's not an isolated issue and it's mechanical from nature. Especially with a JB4 which ups the torque, chances are real you run into this kind of behaviour during 1st to 2nd shifts in LC.

I can also imagine that 76 transmissions can have (other?) failure modes that have negative effect on the launch. And of course, there might indeed be a counter on the number of LCs. Although, IMHO, that feels a bit like a scam from BMW.

It's difficult to diagnose that the root cause of a reduced LC function is the same for both cars here.

Ahh ok. If a failure mode occurred, BMW should fix it then?

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by gpdriver17

Ahh ok. If a failure mode occurred, BMW should fix it then?

That might be a possibility, yes certainly. When they detect the JB4, don't know whether they can, that might waive the guarantee.

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by SigForLife

Do we know of any mechanics, preferably a BMW mechanic, who would verify this issue? If so, I could maybe be convinced to take it as a class action.

The info from the 76 versus 75 is coming from lemetier. He might have more info also about counter on LC, but is he willing to reveal or is it protected by NDA?

[gpdriver17]

I have been getting a ton of drive train malfunctions. But I just thought they were from the JB4. I'll take it off and see what they say.

[limeypride]

Originally Posted by KoenG

I'am only stating that when you have the 75, it's not an isolated issue and it's mechanical from nature. Especially with a JB4 which ups the torque, chances are real you run into this kind of behaviour during 1st to 2nd shifts in LC.

I can also imagine that 76 transmissions can have (other?) failure modes that have negative effect on the launch. And of course, there might indeed be a counter on the number of LCs. Although, IMHO, that feels a bit like a scam from BMW.

It's difficult to diagnose that the root cause of a reduced LC function is the same for both cars here.

Ah, I understand your point now.

To the the broader audience of skeptics, let's be clear here: I'm not citing opinion or speculation--this happens. One thing I cannot argue is whether or not the launch counter kicks in in the same way with stock cars--none of mine remain stock long enough to tell. That said:

1. I've hit it on 3 cars (2 x F90s and my current M8C)
2. It was objectively diagnosed on my first F90 by the local NW USA BMW Tech through BMW Bellevue with no mention of the "tune"
--- specifically, after 100 launches, the transmission disables ZF's QS3 shift pattern (quick shift) permitting only QS1 and QS2 thereafter across the transmission's entire remaining lifetime. The former is used in Comfort with WOT or increased power-demand; the latter when in sportier modes at the peak of the power band and|or RPM and|or torque (QS3 is reserved for launches). In QS2, tuned or otherwise, you'll occasionally feel the car suppress power during a shift (emphasized mostly from 4th to 5th)
3. I retroactively counted launches (or approximated as best I could thru Dragy records which were a close 1:1 of my launches, i.e. I timed almost all of them). I concluded something like 88--I don't recall the specifics. Given that I know 100 is the limit and I've experienced the loss of QS3 across 3 cars and obviously well over 300 launches, I can tell the difference with my eyes closed or even outside the car from the sound alone. I still launch my M8 today on a weekly basis. Compounded by the validation from BMW NA==this is a thing.

[limeypride]

Originally Posted by gpdriver17

I have been getting a ton of drive train malfunctions. But I just thought they were from the JB4. I'll take it off and see what they say.

The JB4 does trigger an occasional drivetrain fault--I had one yesterday. Specifically, boost pressure over supported ceiling or words to that effect. Use the JB4 to read the codes, search on the JB4 forum or post here. If the code you got is 120719, then it's deemed a bug and there's a JB4 firmware update to fix frequent occurrences. Burger consider it a red herring--that's your call to make, though. For me, I pull over, stop the engine, put the car in diagnostic mode and clear it using the JB4.

The fact that I had it yesterday is rather a huge coincidence--granted. However, this isn't something I see daily, weekly or even monthly.

[pcai]

Originally Posted by AHall

I will probably never use launch control. But some cars have limits on the number of times you can do launch until the car recovers. Does not seem logical the system would allow you to continue to do it if you are headed for damage.

I think what's being referred to here is LC over the lifespan of the car, not just how many launches can you do in 1 sitting before the car stops letting you launch it.

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by limeypride

Ah, I understand your point now.

To the the broader audience of skeptics, let's be clear here: I'm not citing opinion or speculation--this happens. One thing I cannot argue is whether or not the launch counter kicks in in the same way with stock cars--none of mine remain stock long enough to tell. That said:

1. I've hit it on 3 cars (2 x F90s and my current M8C)
2. It was objectively diagnosed on my first F90 by the local NW USA BMW Tech through BMW Bellevue with no mention of the "tune"
--- specifically, after 100 launches, the transmission disables ZF's QS3 shift pattern (quick shift) permitting only QS1 and QS2 thereafter across the transmission's entire remaining lifetime. The former is used in Comfort with WOT or increased power-demand; the latter when in sportier modes at the peak of the power band and|or RPM and|or torque (QS3 is reserved for launches). In QS2, tuned or otherwise, you'll occasionally feel the car suppress power during a shift (emphasized mostly from 4th to 5th)
3. I retroactively counted launches (or approximated as best I could thru Dragy records which were a close 1:1 of my launches, i.e. I timed almost all of them). I concluded something like 88--I don't recall the specifics. Given that I know 100 is the limit and I've experienced the loss of QS3 across 3 cars and obviously well over 300 launches (I still launch it today on a weekly basis) compounded by the validation from BMW NA==this is a thing.

Wow, I find this information very compromising actually! This implies they mainly install a LC for showing it and pimp their 0-60, but not for really using it? I wonder whether a porsche turbo S would also limit the number of launches, or indeed, a Tesla Plaid?

[limeypride]

Originally Posted by SigForLife

Do we know of any mechanics, preferably a BMW mechanic, who would verify this issue? If so, I could maybe be convinced to take it as a class action.

LOL

Good luck with that--c'mon, are you going to take on BMW? Show me where it says the transmission won't protect itself (or at least as they or ZF deem "necessary protection"). I don't like it... but I like enough else about the cars to live with it. In addition, perhaps its related to tune detection--piggybacks aren't immune as so many like to think. I'm told they record acceleration velocity and take into account elevation changes--"Dear customer, how did you manage to achieve 0-60mph in 2.57s up hill when the math indicates that our car, in stock form, cannot do better than 2.95s? Yes sir, we know stuff like that, too."

If you do decide to take them on, I'm happy to be put on a stand and be a pissed-off witness with credible experiential evidence but, to my mind, we don't have a leg to stand on.

[limeypride]

Originally Posted by KoenG

Wow, I find this information very compromising actually! This implies they mainly install a LC for showing it and pimp their 0-60, but not for really using it? I wonder whether a porsche turbo S would also limit the number of launches, or indeed, a Tesla Plaid?

Yeah, I sympathize.

But Porsche? Hell no--they've made a reputation on the fact that you can launch the new 911 back-to-back-to-back as hard and as often as you'd like. No idea on the Tesla.

[limeypride]

Originally Posted by pcai

I think what's being referred to here is LC over the lifespan of the car, not just how many launches can you do in 1 sitting before the car stops letting you launch it.

Correct.

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by limeypride

LOL

Good luck with that--c'mon, are you going to take on BMW? Show me where it says the transmission won't protect itself (or at least as they or ZF deem "necessary protection"). I don't like it... but I like enough else about the cars to live with it. In addition, perhaps its related to tune detection--piggybacks aren't immune as so many like to think. I'm told they record acceleration velocity and take into account elevation changes--"Dear customer, how did you manage to achieve 0-60mph in 2.57s up hill when the math indicates that our car, in stock form, cannot do better than 2.95s? Yes sir, we know stuff like that, too."

If you do decide to take them on, I'm happy to be put on a stand and be a pissed-off witness with credible experiential evidence but, to my mind, we don't have a leg to stand on.

When you tune the engine, you effectively don't have a leg to stand on and BMW has to be lauded that they have fail safes integrated to prevent you from damaging the car. Is there a counter on the LC also when engine is stock?

[Mcc420]

I bought the wife a x1 m sport. And I clearly says that the lc is limited on that car. And I believe it was 100.

[pcai]

Originally Posted by KoenG

When you tune the engine, you effectively don't have a leg to stand on and BMW has to be lauded that they have fail safes integrated to prevent you from damaging the car. Is there a counter on the LC also when engine is stock?

Yes we are not talking exclusively about tuned cars.

[Mcc420]

F48 technical training docs https://f48.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1177240

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by Mcc420

F48 technical training docs https://f48.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1177240

I don't know how to react, I'am just shocked about this. So actually, forget about the LC, bmw doesn't want you to use it anyway.

[AHall]

Originally Posted by Mcc420

F48 technical training docs https://f48.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1177240

Well there it is.