[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl

That depends on the length of the course. This ain't drag racing. At last weekends IMSA race at Road America, the qualifying times gap between the fastest and slowest cars in the top prototype category was 5.45 seconds, and that's on a 4 mile course. The Ring is more than triple the length, so that would equate to a 16 second gap! These are purpose built racecars which have regular adjustments and weight penalties applied between races to ensure parity to make the "show" better. So, a 3 seconds gap between cars on such a long course is hardly evidence of 1 car "walking all over" another, to borrow your phrase.


Based on the fact that your lack of response to my question tells me you've done ZERO track days in either an M3 or 911, then I'd say even the "inferior" M3 will give you plenty of room to grow, no 911 needed there.

Shit by that measurement, I we all should be driving Toyota Prius' right?

[MiddleAgedAl]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

Shit by that measurement, I we all should be driving Toyota Prius' right?

Huh? What do you mean ? I don't think you are following my argument at all if you think a Prius is somehow relevant.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl

Huh? What do you mean ? I don't think you are following my argument at all if you think a Prius is somehow relevant.

I see you're trying to make an argument about the objective merits of certain cars a personal matter. Nothing you've said so far has refuted the original groundwork of what I've established, the Porsche is just a better performing vehicle, regardless of my talent level or yours.

Is the M3 easier to drive hard? Maybe
Is the M3 a better daily driver? Possible

But those are subjective measures that can only really be quantified on an individual basis.

[MiddleAgedAl]

For my amusement, I googled to find that a prius lapped the ring the 20min, 59secs, according to Jalopnik.

This would not be a 3 second gap to the 911, but rather a 777 second gap.

[MiddleAgedAl]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

I see you're trying to make an argument about the objective merits of certain cars a personal matter. Nothing you've said so far has refuted the original groundwork of what I've established, the Porsche is just a better performing vehicle, regardless of my talent level or yours.

Is the M3 easier to drive hard? Maybe
Is the M3 a better daily driver? Possible

But those are subjective measures that can only really be quantified on an individual basis.

A vehicle can only perform as well as the person driving it. If you had ever attended track days and seen the disparity between peak magazine numbers and consistently repeatable lap times in actual practice, you'd see that is true.

If you were sitting there in your 911, being lapped by guys in M3's, perhaps "my vehicle performs much better than yours" would not be the thought going thru your head.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl

A vehicle can only perform as well as the person driving it. If you had ever attended track days and seen the disparity between peak magazine numbers and consistently repeatable lap times in actual practice, you'd see that is true.

If you were sitting there in your 911, being lapped by guys in M3's, perhaps "my vehicle performs much better than yours" would not be the thought going thru your head.

I've autocrossed and got murdered by quiet a few more talented drivers, and faster cars. I know how it works.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

Hyberbolic statement, but to be fair I believe the E9x M shares a lot of parts with it's siblings. Still, his criteria in which he based his criticisms on is silly. The Porsche brand as a whole is rated more reliable than BMW, and I haven't heard of any issues with the DI Carrera motors - and even if his was problematic, one car isn't statistically relevant in the grand scheme. Is the Porsche a better performance car? Absolutely no doubt in any objective measure, however if you're expecting it to drive like a Camry, one has to wonder what expectations you had of a car, and what business you have driving it - money doesn't buy sense.

I have been spending a lot of time on the Porsche forums in anticipation of buying one. If you don't think Porsche has its own share of issues, you are misinformed. Hesitation issues, lots of issues with the 991 GT3 when released, etc. There are a LOT of unhappy Porsche owners there with PNA effectively ignoring their problems... the engine stumble/hesitation showing up in about 1/3 of 991 911's based on a poll done.

I'm not bashing their quality... they make good cars... but, like BMW or MB or any other manufacturer, they have real issues too.

I appreciate your enthusiasm for the brand but it is coming off a bit uninformed, blind and arm chair racer like. I'm excited to own a 991 GTS (before they go turbo) but I'm not going in thinking everything in the Porsche world is perfect... or necessarily better than BMW M. It ain't... regardless of your rose colored glasses

P.S. I've driven many 911's and recently a 991 GTS... yes it was a better pure performance car than my M4 but the M4 was close enough that for many, they wouldn't notice or care about the difference. The M4 is a LOT closer in performance than the price gap would suggest. That is, the Porsche is 50% more but maybe 10% better... that's a BIG premium for a small difference in performance and feel.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by gthal

I have been spending a lot of time on the Porsche forums in anticipation of buying one. If you don't think Porsche has its own share of issues, you are misinformed. Hesitation issues, lots of issues with the 991 GT3 when released, etc. There are a LOT of unhappy Porsche owners there with PNA effectively ignoring their problems... the engine stumble/hesitation showing up in about 1/3 of 991 911's based on a poll done.

I'm not bashing their quality... they make good cars... but, like BMW or MB or any other manufacturer, they have real issues too.

I appreciate your enthusiasm for the brand but it is coming off a bit uninformed, blind and arm chair racer like. I'm excited to own a 991 GTS (before they go turbo) but I'm not going in thinking everything in the Porsche world is perfect... or necessarily better than BMW M. It ain't... regardless of your rose colored glasses

P.S. I've driven many 911's and recently a 991 GTS... yes it was a better pure performance car than my M4 but the M4 was close enough that for many, they wouldn't notice or care about the difference. The M4 is a LOT closer in performance than the price gap would suggest. That is, the Porsche is 50% more but maybe 10% better... that's a BIG premium for a small difference in performance and feel.

Notice I said the Carrera DI motors. The previous motors has IMS failures that would happen at random, but it's good to hear Porsche is back to being Porsche.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

Notice I said the Carrera DI motors. The previous motors has IMS failures that would happen at random, but it's good to hear Porsche is back to being Porsche.

I know... the hesitation has been reported on 997 and 991 generations... my point being Porsche isn't some god of pure awesomeness. It's like every other manufacturer.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by gthal

The hesitation has been reported on 997 and 991 generations... the point being Porsche isn't some god of pure awesomeness. It's like every other manufacturer.

Bull fucking shit it isn't.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

Bull fucking shit it isn't.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by gthal

I actually thought they sorted out the DI issue as well, I did hear about it briefly. But then again, I don't hang out on Rennlist much, so I have no idea anymore. Oh well, it's a privilege Porsche grants you to buy the car, much less buy replacement parts and costly maintenance. You best be grateful.

[John 070]

This is a copy/paste from the Porsche survey, they wanted us to rank various luxury vehicles:

Attainable luxury is defined as luxury that most peopel can achieve and own
Dreamable luxury is defined as luxury that people dream of and someday may actually achieve or own
Unattainable luxury is defined as luxury that almost no one can achieve or own

Do you think BMW and Porsche are in the same group?

I will say no, that BMW is attainable, and Porsche is dreamable.

This has a lot to do with the cost of living imho

[FJJB]

on the m3 vs. 911 front, Car & Driver has done head to heads with the last two generations of both.

E92 vs 997 - http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mparison-tests

M4 vs. 991 - http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test

In the last gen test, M3 was faster around Laguna Seca but 997 had marginally better acceleration performance. Handling and braking numbers were similar.

In the current gen test, no track times but the performance stats tend to favor the M4 with a slight edge to the 991 in braking (although some of this could be attributable to DCT vs. the 7 speed 991 manual).

What is appealing to me personally is the 991's significantly lower weight. I want one while my kids are small enough to stuff in the back, but the value proposition is just not there for me.

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by John 070

This is a copy/paste from the Porsche survey, they wanted us to rank various luxury vehicles:

Attainable luxury is defined as luxury that most peopel can achieve and own
Dreamable luxury is defined as luxury that people dream of and someday may actually achieve or own
Unattainable luxury is defined as luxury that almost no one can achieve or own

Do you think BMW and Porsche are in the same group?

I will say no, that BMW is attainable, and Porsche is dreamable.

This has a lot to do with the cost of living imho

Your right about that, i think. I suppose it has to do with maintenance too. Buy a new BMW, maintenance included for 4yr 50k miles. Maintenance visits in a Porsche can run the equivalent of 2 to 3 BMW car payments. Then again, i suppose BMW as a brand is more attainable due to it's diverse and LARGE line of up vehicles as well.

Would you say that a brand new M3/4 is attainable or dreamable for most people?

Originally Posted by FJJB

on the m3 vs. 911 front, Car & Driver has done head to heads with the last two generations of both.

E92 vs 997 - http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mparison-tests

M4 vs. 991 - http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test

In the last gen test, M3 was faster around Laguna Seca but 997 had marginally better acceleration performance. Handling and braking numbers were similar.

In the current gen test, no track times but the performance stats tend to favor the M4 with a slight edge to the 991 in braking (although some of this could be attributable to DCT vs. the 7 speed 991 manual).

What is appealing to me personally is the 991's significantly lower weight. I want one while my kids are small enough to stuff in the back, but the value proposition is just not there for me.

This was one of the most noticeable differences to me when driving the 911 vs the M3. Just opening the door of the 911 lets you know you're getting into something light weight. The door feels like nothing in terms of weight, especially compared to the M3.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by FJJB

on the m3 vs. 911 front, Car & Driver has done head to heads with the last two generations of both.

E92 vs 997 - http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mparison-tests

M4 vs. 991 - http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test

In the last gen test, M3 was faster around Laguna Seca but 997 had marginally better acceleration performance. Handling and braking numbers were similar.

In the current gen test, no track times but the performance stats tend to favor the M4 with a slight edge to the 991 in braking (although some of this could be attributable to DCT vs. the 7 speed 991 manual).

What is appealing to me personally is the 991's significantly lower weight. I want one while my kids are small enough to stuff in the back, but the value proposition is just not there for me.

Car and Driver hasn't run a test, but I believe Evo? Has..it was around 2 seconds faster.

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by FJJB

on the m3 vs. 911 front, Car & Driver has done head to heads with the last two generations of both.

E92 vs 997 - http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mparison-tests

First time reading this article, it's very similar to my personal experiences with both.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

First time reading this article, it's very similar to my personal experiences with both.

I'm sure.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

First time reading this article, it's very similar to my personal experiences with both.

Yeah me too...I was lent the more powerfull 997 gen 2 S with PDK and sport chrono for the day and I really enjoyed driving it - but I still handed it back to the dealer early.
I don't think the base 911 (at least not the 380bhp 997) is as much fun to drive as the E92 M3. I reckon you need to go for a turbo or a GT variant.
I'm trying to wangle a day at the Porsche experience centre at Silverstone out of my local Porsche dealer and have a drive of the full range.

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Yeah me too...I was lent the more powerfull 997 gen 2 S with PDK and sport chrono for the day and I really enjoyed driving it - but I still handed it back to the dealer early.
I don't think the base 911 (at least not the 380bhp 997) is as much fun to drive as the E92 M3. I reckon you need to go for a turbo or a GT variant.
I'm trying to wangle a day at the Porsche experience centre at Silverstone out of my local Porsche dealer and have a drive of the full range.

I really wanted to like the GTS. It had the sport chrono package, lowered suspension, etc... i was excited to get it on a track. But I think two of the worst factors for me was opting for the PDK and the 4wd. I'm quite sure i would have enjoyed my time with it much more if it didn't have those options. Everyone raved about the PDK but that was one of the nagging issues that kept it at the dealer. The lag in 1st gear and the clunking going into 2nd gear was dreadful. Every time you started the car, the first time shifting from 1st to 2nd the tranny would lag for ever. If you were getting on it, pulling into traffic or something and were at high RPM when it shifted, it sounded like the tranny just dropped out of the car. Plus the lag is so long that it would be bouncing off rev limiter until the inevitable kick in the ass when 2nd gear finally engaged. Porsche NA, once i got them involved just brushed it off by stating that was a characteristic of the PDK.

The 4wd was a whole other issue that really dampened the joy of running twisty roads at a relaxed pace. If you went into a turn at yawning 4-5 tenths of the cars capabilities everything was fine. You got to experience that precise Porsche steering. If you went into the corner at spirited 6-7 tenths, the front wheel drive would kick on mid corner and cause the front end to push, then you let off because you're running wide, and then the front end bites again. If you went in the corner at a track day 8 tenths or higher, the car seemed to have the 4wd already on and it behaved well. It's not always possible or responsible to drive at 8 tenths on the street, which made daily driving it either boring or unpredictable.

The oddest thing about this car that neither the dealer or Porsche NA had an explanation for was the unsettled, floating, super light steering feeling the car had when over 110mph. I remember after breaking the engine in for a good 1k miles, i was on the highway late at night an had an opportunity to make a high speed run when no one was around. The first time i hit 120 i slowed down very quickly, made sure the deployable spoiler was out and did it again. Same feeling which was very unsettling. My first car, 1985 supra felt more stable at 120 than this 2012 GTS4. I don't know what it was, but the most i felt comfortable doing was an indicated 135. The M3 is a stark contrast in this department. I've been at an indicated 167 and it felt just as stable as if you were doing 90.

Just like the article stated, it seemed the GTS was always fighting what i wanted it to do. That's why i suppose deleting the dynamic 4wd and PDK would make it more enjoyable. Who knows, maybe i'll give a 2wd version another go. But then the Cayman and all it's available mods makes that a hard decision to make. I keep thinking more and more that a modded Cayman is something that i could get into.

But for now, i'm trying to see how the project E30 is going to turn out. Track suspension on a 1991 318is with modded E30 M3 motor putting out about 290hp should be a load of fun to drive. At the tuner now getting new fuel mapping. Should be the last hurdle to get it running right.

[Taskmaster]

The 911’s shortcomings have nothing to do with driving. If you can make peace with the fact that there’s at least one faster and cheaper German in town, the 911 experience is worth the price.

Well shit, isn't that what I've been saying and I didn't even read the article till now?

You chastised me because I didn't own a 911, but here you are admitting to your own ignorance as a consumer.

So you bought an AWD Automatic 911 and complain that it doesn't drive like a Toyota Camry (if I'm correct on your complaint) nor was it as compliant as your M is.

Ok, I'm aware you and I are already not going to get along, so I'll just come out and say that sounds like a personal problem.

[FJJB]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

The oddest thing about this car that neither the dealer or Porsche NA had an explanation for was the unsettled, floating, super light steering feeling the car had when over 110mph.

I'm half sarcastic and half serious with this - you think that is them to recreate the mythical Porsche steering?

When I first drove a 993 I had a "moment" under acceleration at speed where I was convinced the steering had broken. With the weight off the front wheel the steering wheel was mess. I noticed a somewhat similar dynamic but much less pronounced in a 987 Cayman.

It think its intentionally gone now that the steering is electric, but maybe they tried to put a little into the programming for old times sake? I didn't like it but the purists foam at the mouth for it.

I apologize if this is my dumbest post of all time...