[ResIpsaLoquitur]

Originally Posted by Kponti

Exxon 93 octane

Originally Posted by Kruppa

Wow great time, I thought setting 7 was only for 100 octane.

I don’t have the supporting mods that Kponti does, but I have run the GTS Black for ~45k miles of service over two F90s on Map 7 since the break in was completed solely on 93 octane with no issues whatsoever.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by Kponti

Exxon 93 octane

Originally Posted by Kruppa

Wow great time, I thought setting 7 was only for 100 octane.

Originally Posted by ResIpsaLoquitur

I don’t have the supporting mods that Kponti does, but I have run the GTS Black for ~47k miles of service over two F90s on Map 7 since the break in was completed solely on 93 octane with no issues whatsoever.

When you say you are not experiencing any issues, I'm assuming this is based on the car's driving and you are not looking at any logs for this confirmation.

it's important to consider that even if the car seems to run fine, this is because the DME is adjusting the ignition timing to protect the engine from an overly aggressive map. This protective measure leads to reduced power output compared to a well-balanced map that adds a moderate amount of boost without causing the DME to reduce ignition timing.

More importantly, constantly relying on the DME to retard ignition as a safety measure can transition from seemingly perfect driving conditions to serious engine damage in a split second. It's not recommended to depend on this mechanism for tuning your car, as it isn't a safe long term solution.

[Kponti]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

When you say you are not experiencing any issues, I'm assuming this is based on the car's driving and you are not looking at any logs for this confirmation.

it's important to consider that even if the car seems to run fine, this is because the DME is adjusting the ignition timing to protect the engine from an overly aggressive map. This protective measure leads to reduced power output compared to a well-balanced map that adds a moderate amount of boost without causing the DME to reduce ignition timing.

More importantly, constantly relying on the DME to retard ignition as a safety measure can transition from seemingly perfect driving conditions to serious engine damage in a split second. It's not recommended to depend on this mechanism for tuning your car, as it isn't a safe long term solution.

I am not a fan of piggies in general but since I have a locked ECU, this is one of the best choices I have for now.

That being said, I have been tuning German, domestic, and Japanese-boosted (turbo and superchargers) cars since the late 90s. The above statement is not exactly accurate in the context it is used.

Piggybacks will not be able to increase boost as much as an actual tune does or can, so in that regard, most real tunes tend to run more boost than piggybacks.
As a result of that, timing is reduced in real tunes to keep it from detonating at that higher boost level. Something that is not required of a good quality Piggyback map for a given octane level.
The engine and fuel (not tune type) determine what amount of boost and timing the engine can safely tolerate.

So the moderate levels of boost are usually found more in Piggybacks than in real tunes. Real tunes allow you to raise either boost or timing or both beyond moderate levels more so than a piggyback can or will.
That's why they make so much less power

Real tunes also rely on factory knock sensors to retard timing if detonation is detected (so do factory stock tunes). The key is not to raise either boost or timing too much to make it knock on a piggyback or a real tune

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by Kponti

I am not a fan of piggies in general but since I have a locked ECU, this is one of the best choices I have for now.

That being said, I have been tuning German, domestic, and Japanese-boosted (turbo and superchargers) cars since the late 90s. The above statement is not exactly accurate in the context it is used.

Piggybacks will not be able to increase boost as much as an actual tune does or can, so in that regard, most real tunes tend to run more boost than piggybacks.
As a result of that, timing is reduced in real tunes to keep it from detonating at that higher boost level. Something that is not required of a good quality Piggyback map for a given octane level.
The engine and fuel (not tune type) determine what amount of boost and timing the engine can safely tolerate.

So the moderate levels of boost are usually found more in Piggybacks than in real tunes. Real tunes allow you to raise either boost or timing or both beyond moderate levels more so than a piggyback can or will.
That's why they make so much less power

Real tunes also rely on factory knock sensors to retard timing if detonation is detected (so do factory stock tunes). The key is not to raise either boost or timing too much to make it knock on a piggyback or a real tune

Your post contains misunderstandings about tuning. However, to keep our discussion focused, especially since you've indicated that you disagree with my previous post, I'll address only the points I raised.

Our conversation is specifically about two piggyback systems: Race Chip and JB4. I'm not sure why there's a shift to comparing flash tunes with piggybacks, as that's not the topic at hand nor was it the subject of my post.

Here is a recap of my post
"When running a piggyback that cannot datalog such as the race chip, you should not run aggressive maps since you can't see if the ignition timing is dropping because the boost is too high for your octane. The car might run fine but that does not mean your map is good for your car, relying on the DME failsafe is not a safe or effective method of tuning"

Which part of my post don't you agree with?

[Kruppa]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

Your post contains misunderstandings about tuning. However, to keep our discussion focused, especially since you've indicated that you disagree with my previous post, I'll address only the points I raised.

Our conversation is specifically about two piggyback systems: Race Chip and JB4. I'm not sure why there's a shift to comparing flash tunes with piggybacks, as that's not the topic at hand nor was it the subject of my post.

Here is a recap of my post
"When running a piggyback that cannot datalog such as the race chip, you should not run aggressive maps since you can't see if the ignition timing is dropping because the boost is too high for your octane. The car might run fine but that does not mean your map is good for your car, relying on the DME failsafe is not a safe or effective method of tuning"

Which part of my post don't you agree with?

Thanks for the info! So on 93 I think map 5 or 6 max is recommended? I tried both and got .01 variance in 1/4 time so just left it on 5.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by Kruppa

Thanks for the info! So on 93 I think map 5 or 6 max is recommended? I tried both and got .01 variance in 1/4 time so just left it on 5.

Map Guide as of v9 firmware:

Map 0: Stock operation, JB4 disabled
Map 1: Default performance map, 3psi peak request over stock. Compatible with 91+ octane. Suggested for most applications.
Map 2: 4psi peak over stock, a more aggressive version of map1 suitable for 93+ octane in most applications.
Map 3: 6psi peak over stock, a much more aggressive map suggested for E20 E85 mixtures, quality 93+ octane, octane booster, or unleaded race gas mixtures. Note in many cases like with the competition package map2 may be more aggressive than map3.
Map 4: 26psi absolute boost profile
Map 5: 27psi absolute boost profile
Map 6: User adjustable map. RPM1500 values of less than 6psi make map6 additive target based, values over 7psi make map6 absolute target based.
Map 7: Water/meth (WMI) progressive safety map, boost target determined by WMI additive
Map 8: Low boost VALET & safety map


Map 6 is the custom map, you need to input your own boost to work properly.

Per the guide above, lots of options for 93. If you are using map 3 or map 5 and you are not mixing with E85, I recommend you datalog to ensure that the 93 octane from that gas station is high quality.

[Boosted_8]

As far as I know Racechip only test their boost profiles on pump fuel, so logic suggests level 7 is for 93/94 Octane and work backward from there. With JB4 they publish guidance on which map to use with which fuel so you just have to be literate to succeed.

All in all the boost increments with the piggy backs is low single digit increases. The same sort of difference in boost pressure from driving at sea level Vs driving in the Rockies.

[Kruppa]

Originally Posted by Boosted_8

As far as I know Racechip only test their boost profiles on pump fuel, so logic suggests level 7 is for 93/94 Octane and work backward from there. With JB4 they publish guidance on which map to use with which fuel so you just have to be literate to succeed.

All in all the boost increments with the piggy backs is low single digit increases. The same sort of difference in boost pressure from driving at sea level Vs driving in the Rockies.

I have CarBahn piggyback which is supposedly Racechip. In their software you first choose 91, 93, or 100 octane. From there you can adjust within ranges...in their 1-7 mapping you can choose map 1-4 on 91 octane, 4-6 on 93 octane and 6-7 on 100 octane. So if you choose 93 octane you can't even select 7 as an option. Never been sure what to use and on 93 if 5 is "better" than 6, if running 93 but saying you're on 100 and choosing map 7 is ok, etc.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by Boosted_8

As far as I know Racechip only test their boost profiles on pump fuel, so logic suggests level 7 is for 93/94 Octane and work backward from there. With JB4 they publish guidance on which map to use with which fuel so you just have to be literate to succeed.

All in all the boost increments with the piggy backs is low single digit increases. The same sort of difference in boost pressure from driving at sea level Vs driving in the Rockies.

The problem with Racecehip and similar tunes is that they don't disclose how much boost each map adds.

They also don't officially recommend any maps.

this plus the fact that you cannot datalog is a dangerous combination and you can't blame them for any damages because they never officially said which maps are for which octane.

But since the BMW DME is so good, a lot of tuners can get away with a lot of things.

Its better to be safe than sorry in my opinion. If you are using a tune that does not datalog and does not disclose how much boost each map is adding, stay with the conservative maps. map 5 for 91, map 6 for 93, map 7 for E85

[Boosted_8]

I don't know if it's possible in BMW land but on my last Audi I had a piggy with no logging, so I used my phone in combo with a OBD2 Bluetooth dongle to log boost and ign. The frequency was poor but it told me peak boost, ignition advance and a few other things to judge if the box was a grenade waiting to go off or not.

[Kponti]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

Your post contains misunderstandings about tuning. However, to keep our discussion focused, especially since you've indicated that you disagree with my previous post, I'll address only the points I raised.

Our conversation is specifically about two piggyback systems: Race Chip and JB4. I'm not sure why there's a shift to comparing flash tunes with piggybacks, as that's not the topic at hand nor was it the subject of my post.

Here is a recap of my post
"When running a piggyback that cannot datalog such as the race chip, you should not run aggressive maps since you can't see if the ignition timing is dropping because the boost is too high for your octane. The car might run fine but that does not mean your map is good for your car, relying on the DME failsafe is not a safe or effective method of tuning"

Which part of my post don't you agree with?

Easy enough to datalog even with Racechip. Max boost I've seen on Map7 is just under 4psi. Average is 3-4 psi.
Haven't tried any of the other maps to see

We can agree to disagree on my tuning understanding lol. I have tuned too many cars to count some personally some via other tuners. Loads of datalogs I've poured over .....

[johnny5ive]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

Map Guide as of v9 firmware:

Map 0: Stock operation, JB4 disabled
Map 1: Default performance map, 3psi peak request over stock. Compatible with 91+ octane. Suggested for most applications.
Map 2: 4psi peak over stock, a more aggressive version of map1 suitable for 93+ octane in most applications.
Map 3: 6psi peak over stock, a much more aggressive map suggested for E20 E85 mixtures, quality 93+ octane, octane booster, or unleaded race gas mixtures. Note in many cases like with the competition package map2 may be more aggressive than map3.
Map 4: 26psi absolute boost profile
Map 5: 27psi absolute boost profile
Map 6: User adjustable map. RPM1500 values of less than 6psi make map6 additive target based, values over 7psi make map6 absolute target based.
Map 7: Water/meth (WMI) progressive safety map, boost target determined by WMI additive
Map 8: Low boost VALET & safety map


Map 6 is the custom map, you need to input your own boost to work properly.

Per the guide above, lots of options for 93. If you are using map 3 or map 5 and you are not mixing with E85, I recommend you datalog to ensure that the 93 octane from that gas station is high quality.

I've got a RaceChip GTS Black coming this week, I have 93 and 94 Octaine near me. From what I've been reading I'll probably run Map 5. Does it matter if I'm on 93 or 94?

I've got no other mods but I'm debating secondary downpipes and a new cold air intake (either standard or front mount).

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by johnny5ive

I've got a RaceChip GTS Black coming this week, I have 93 and 94 Octaine near me. From what I've been reading I'll probably run Map 5. Does it matter if I'm on 93 or 94?

I've got no other mods but I'm debating secondary downpipes and a new cold air intake (either standard or front mount).

You can run map 6 on 93 or 94 with no issues.

Let me know once you make a decision on the downpipes and intake and i can help

[ResIpsaLoquitur]

Originally Posted by johnny5ive

I've got a RaceChip GTS Black coming this week, I have 93 and 94 Octaine near me. From what I've been reading I'll probably run Map 5. Does it matter if I'm on 93 or 94?

I've got no other mods but I'm debating secondary downpipes and a new cold air intake (either standard or front mount).

I’ve got not empirical data on this, but as an anecdotal piece of information, I can confirm that I’ve run the GTS Black on Map 7 with no other supporting mods and have ran 93 for a combined ~45k between pre-LCI and LCI. No issues whatsoever.

I’m not an engineer, I would assume you’d be just fine running Map 5 on 93.

EDIT — Apologies, I didn’t realize this was the thread that I had posted this info on (earlier in the thread).