[clbmw]

5 pages of healthy debate about the M5, but barely anything else. Whatever happens I don't see BMW completely f-ing up one of their flagship cars next gen; they're not stupid and they know what kind of dynamic experience people expect from an M car, even if they change the way it's delivered (e.g. Turbocharging).

I guess then people aren't excited by the prospect of an X3M or an X4M? Or the expansion of the M performance range including what sounds like the big Diesel engine?

[EzequielR]

Idk what to say....?

[Roundown]

Originally Posted by bcl0328

why is everyone so against AWD? the GTR has it and it's a legendary car.

GTR is a legend for the times it sets... but it does that with a cadre of driver intermediating technologies (AWD with a super computer managing torque vectoring, 4-wheel steering, etc.).

IMHO, that's not what M is about. M cars should be about the means (driver engagement, chassis, etc.) not just the end (straight line or ring speeds).

I would favor less power, lighter weight and teaching folks how to procure proper winter tires... before giving up and going AWD.

[SteveSpy]

This is astoundingly true. One of the biggest things I miss from my Audi was the fact that no matter how much I tried to get its wheels to spin, no way Jose, it was solid. THe M will slip, especially with my Dinan stage 1 upgrade...

[Falafel Combo]

Originally Posted by RingMeister01

Against consumer popularity, I'd rather have a car less in weight and less in power. Higher driver dynamic, less fuel consumption and less pollution.

Imagine a modern E36 M3 with today's technological abilities.

Problem pucking solved.

228i, sport package, 6MT.


By golly, with the number of cars in BMW's current lineup, there is literally a car for everyone. They even make a freakin minivan now, just to keep the soccer moms happy too!

[crono06]

Originally Posted by dbworld4k

/flame suit on

That's precisely my point.

It's BS. The M3/M4/M5 are living proof of how BMW has now geared (ha) the M cars to the plethora of posers who have not a single clue how to drive the bloody thing to within an ounce of what a sports car is made for (see: moron crashing his Sakhir Orange M4 over a median at Cars and Coffee). These buyers have no business with an M car (or what M cars used to be). These 95% should be buying dolled up non-Ms with a million M stickers and badges just to remind them, for their country club dinners. After all, non-Ms are supposed to be the comfortable, daily driving sport-luxury cars.

The Ms were catered to true enthusiasts who don't bitch about a lack of low-end torque or slightly firm suspension. M cars were designed to be unapologetic in their sports car nature. Wringing out a motor to stratospheric RPMs with linear power delivery and crisp, nimble handling are values that used to be the core of BMW M. Not tuned 550i motors mated to a platform shared with a 7 series, and tweaked power trains found all over the lineups. That's not what a damn race-derived sports car is all about.

Look at how much current BMW M models have become so mediocre. There was a time when these were the unquestioned, dominant benchmarks in their respective classes (see E36 M3, E46 M3, E92 M3, E39 M5). Hell, the E92 M3 even won comparisons against the 997 Carreras. Today, the M3/4/5/6/71927322 are lucky to be the in the middle of their competitors with their ridiculous size, weight, plush suspensions and tractor torque curves. Maybe the M2 will be bmws saving grace (even then, with a tuned 235i motor).

That said, I get it. You need more power. More torque. That's the way the competition is going so FI is unavoidable. But for heaven's sake, why can't you keep up the class dominant engineering that once was? Why is there so much corner cutting (well, profits) instead of world-leading Motorsport engineering of yesteryear? Why are their current Ms just hopped up cookie cutter versions of their non-M counterparts instead of utilizing actual, real Motorsports research and development? I understand BMW has to adapt to their competitors, but they're doing a totally piss poor job of it.

A once unwavering class leader is now something to just simmer over and to appeal to the masses. And it's bullshit. M is all about Marketing and Money now, hardly about Motorsport. It's a shame. Ces la vie.

/rant

While I completely agree with what you say, it's just unfortunate that this is the way that the industry is heading.

Even if we look at other brands, most of the 'enthusiast' cars are becoming softer in order to cater to the masses.

[slalomfever]

here's what I hope will happen...

- AWD remains an OPTION
- Manual Transmission remains an OPTION on all M models even in AWD(except SUV's)
- a lighter and more fuel efficient vehicle
- a lightweight option (no nav, no cameras, no premium stereo)

[earlfocht]

As a former 1M owner and current F10 M5 owner, AWD would be a welcome improvement.

I really enjoy xDrive, which apparently is a rare opinion in this thread. If the 550 xDrive were available with a manual or DCT, I'd have gotten it instead. (It's a shame the M5 also doesn't have ceramic-control or radar-cruise options.)

AWD didn't make a lot of sense on the previous-gen naturally-aspirated M cars, but the new turbos bring so much torque so quickly at the low end, most of which can't be used off the line and at at low speeds without breaking out the rear end or being cut by DTC.

It's hard to fully enjoy or use the power of the current M5 day-to-day because it has so much more power than traction. I see little reason to add even more power in the next-gen one without adding AWD —*most M5 customers, most of the time, wouldn't see any usable gain.

Sure, AWD isn't as good for purists or track use. But most M5 owners, most of the time, aren't on tracks, and as purists go, the M5 is too big and heavy anyway (and likely to remain so, even with weight-saving measures in the G series).

BMW M's recent statements have been pretty clear: RWD purists and track drivers should be looking at the M3/4, which will remain a purist's car. The M5/6 will not be afraid to serve the *actual* market demand for $100K+ super-sport executive sedans, most of which will never see a track, and whose current buyers usually demand AWD and are often buying another brand to get it.

[tallshortguy]

Originally Posted by dbworld4k

/flame suit on

The Ms were catered to true enthusiasts who don't bitch about a lack of low-end torque or slightly firm suspension. M cars were designed to be unapologetic in their sports car nature. Wringing out a motor to stratospheric RPMs with linear power delivery and crisp, nimble handling are values that used to be the core of BMW M. Not tuned 550i motors mated to a platform shared with a 7 series, and tweaked power trains found all over the lineups. That's not what a damn race-derived sports car is all about.

Look at how much current BMW M models have become so mediocre. There was a time when these were the unquestioned, dominant benchmarks in their respective classes (see E36 M3, E46 M3, E92 M3, E39 M5). Hell, the E92 M3 even won comparisons against the 997 Carreras. Today, the M3/4/5/6/71927322 are lucky to be the in the middle of their competitors with their ridiculous size, weight, plush suspensions and tractor torque curves. Maybe the M2 will be bmws saving grace (even then, with a tuned 235i motor).

That said, I get it. You need more power. More torque. That's the way the competition is going so FI is unavoidable. But for heaven's sake, why can't you keep up the class dominant engineering that once was? Why is there so much corner cutting (well, profits) instead of world-leading Motorsport engineering of yesteryear? Why are their current Ms just hopped up cookie cutter versions of their non-M counterparts instead of utilizing actual, real Motorsports research and development? I understand BMW has to adapt to their competitors, but they're doing a totally piss poor job of it.

A once unwavering class leader is now something to just simmer over and to appeal to the masses. And it's bullshit. M is all about Marketing and Money now, hardly about Motorsport. It's a shame. Ces la vie.

/rant

Who is complaining about firm suspension, the M4's standard suspension is stiffer than than outgoing generation. The chassis is stiffer, more nimble, and lighter. It will remain the lightest in the class.

Complaining about normal series derived motors? The vast majority of M engines were based on one of the regular series motors.

M3/4 remains the benchmark in it's segment, in fact by definition seeing as every new performance model in the segment is literally compared to the M3/4 as soon as it's revealed. The e90's win over the 997 carrera was due to the points it amassed in the comfort/practicality department and it was extremely controversial at the time, don't pretend like the e9x M3 beat the 997 on driving dynamics alone.

How about some research on the new models before ranting?

[Revcrazy]

Originally Posted by RingMeister01

Even Porsche has fallen sir. The 911 gets larger in size and weigh significantly more with every generation. THERE HAS TO BE A TIPING POINT in the industry! (by history it'll only result by dire circumstance)

Make the pucking cars smaller with less BS tech! In so you resolve all political, economical and environmental issues! Stupid!!!

Not in synch with that. A the 991 lost nearly 100 lbs from the 997 generation. It is still by all standards a very light car. But the thing is, they not only made it lighter but the lateral g's it pulls, the way it drives is much better than the 997 (and that car was simply sublime).
When a 458 Italian weights 3500 lbs, a stingray weighs close to 3400, it shows you how great a job porsche has done to keep the 911 at 3300 lbs despite being wider, longer and having more tech but not losing the scalpel like precision and roots in a sports car/GT.
To further that point, look at the cayman and bizarre, both around 3000 lbs which is light by any comparison.

[Revcrazy]

Originally Posted by RingMeister01

BMW has more passion and dedication than ANY brand in the world. Look at the club membership numbers, track series variations and attendance, etc... BMW is uber enthusiastic. BMW cannot lose its fundamentals. It's the heritage, focus, detail and simplicity that's drawn us to fanaticism.

Again cannot agree that. They are also far more accessible. But the fact that 80% of porsche GT owners track their cars and the cult following of the 911 is the MOST passion of ANY brand ever.
I was more talking about the passion the engineers put into the cars.

[OverDriven]

Originally Posted by Revcrazy

There is simply no passion in BMW anymore like Porsche, Ferrari and a couple others have. They are simply about a business case and churning out as many cars as possible.

Pretty much. Some companies are driven by the desire to create excellent product, and others are driven by the desire to satisfy the average customer and make as much money as possible. BMW now falls squarely in the latter category. Oh well. There are better options these days.

[Revcrazy]

Originally Posted by tallshortguy

Who is complaining about firm suspension, the M4's standard suspension is stiffer than than outgoing generation. The chassis is stiffer, more nimble, and lighter. It will remain the lightest in the class.

Complaining about normal series derived motors? The vast majority of M engines were based on one of the regular series motors.

M3/4 remains the benchmark in it's segment, in fact by definition seeing as every new performance model in the segment is literally compared to the M3/4 as soon as it's revealed. The e90's win over the 997 carrera was due to the points it amassed in the comfort/practicality department and it was extremely controversial at the time, don't pretend like the e9x M3 beat the 997 on driving dynamics alone.

How about some research on the new models before ranting?

Funny how they use fluff categories when comparing performance. It was a base 997 that matched or beat it in dynamics. Against a 997S it wouldn't have fared well.

[FilipMPower]

How to make a good AWD 101: You dont want it to be permanent AWD, which would only be acceptable in a 20:80 layout max. You want to make it AWD on wish. So that it is RWD, but on launches and moments of low traction the front wheels can get up to 30 percent power. I have no idea how this works or if it is easier to install and lighter than permanent AWD in a 20:80 layout, but that would probably please the enthusiast. Oh, and whoever thinks it should be RWD with presumably over 600 HP is an idiot in my eyes.

[lepp0012]

Wouldn't be terrible if they used an AWD system like the one in the Ferrari FF.

[Nkc]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

I want a 2,500 lbs Z2M. RWD. 4cyl turbo 340 HP.

Almost jizzed myself when I read that. Have your ever considered writing auto erotic?

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by lepp0012

Wouldn't be terrible if they used an AWD system like the one in the Ferrari FF.

Oh so you mean overly complicated and less effective than traditional systems?

Yeah, sign me up.

[M54ccibo]

Originally Posted by RingMeister01

No one has the balls to do it

Edit: I don't see a car for me in the near future and that's sad very sad. I think many share this dire sentiment with me.

Count me in this group. The F8x M sealed the deal.

Going to get a truck DD with a big tow capacity and a dedicated track car, and forget about the street car scene.

[Pentium]

Wait.... FWD 1 Series then AWD M5!?

wake up BMW....

[Vigilante375]

Its funny to hear people whine about not having AWD in something like M cars but then the big wigs mention the possibility and its met with mostly negativity.

Some of the AWD nutswingers ONLY talk about launching and bad weather conditions on why its better the RWD. Ok, thats great but RWD cars still handle better and are easier to control when pushed to their limits, just for starters.

How many AWD race vehicles do you see? Exactly, because thats too much extra weight and rotation mass and harder to control. RWD cars CAN handle the extra power as long as you have a proper tire for it.

Both have their cons and pros but neither one is "superior" than the other. But the whole I can drive my 1000whp Lambo in the snow! Means jack to me because someone else is driving their 1000rwhp CTS-V to work in the snow too.

Besides, are you trying to race someone in those adverse conditions just to "prove" how better AWD might be while looking like a douche when you crash?

[Law]

Originally Posted by dbworld4k

/flame suit on

That's precisely my point.

It's BS. The M3/M4/M5 are living proof of how BMW has now geared (ha) the M cars to the plethora of posers who have not a single clue how to drive the bloody thing to within an ounce of what a sports car is made for (see: moron crashing his Sakhir Orange M4 over a median at Cars and Coffee). These buyers have no business with an M car (or what M cars used to be). These 95% should be buying dolled up non-Ms with a million M stickers and badges just to remind them, for their country club dinners. After all, non-Ms are supposed to be the comfortable, daily driving sport-luxury cars.

The Ms were catered to true enthusiasts who don't bitch about a lack of low-end torque or slightly firm suspension. M cars were designed to be unapologetic in their sports car nature. Wringing out a motor to stratospheric RPMs with linear power delivery and crisp, nimble handling are values that used to be the core of BMW M. Not tuned 550i motors mated to a platform shared with a 7 series, and tweaked power trains found all over the lineups. That's not what a damn race-derived sports car is all about.

Look at how much current BMW M models have become so mediocre. There was a time when these were the unquestioned, dominant benchmarks in their respective classes (see E36 M3, E46 M3, E92 M3, E39 M5). Hell, the E92 M3 even won comparisons against the 997 Carreras. Today, the M3/4/5/6/71927322 are lucky to be the in the middle of their competitors with their ridiculous size, weight, plush suspensions and tractor torque curves. Maybe the M2 will be bmws saving grace (even then, with a tuned 235i motor).

That said, I get it. You need more power. More torque. That's the way the competition is going so FI is unavoidable. But for heaven's sake, why can't you keep up the class dominant engineering that once was? Why is there so much corner cutting (well, profits) instead of world-leading Motorsport engineering of yesteryear? Why are their current Ms just hopped up cookie cutter versions of their non-M counterparts instead of utilizing actual, real Motorsports research and development? I understand BMW has to adapt to their competitors, but they're doing a totally piss poor job of it.

A once unwavering class leader is now something to just simmer over and to appeal to the masses. And it's bullshit. M is all about Marketing and Money now, hardly about Motorsport. It's a shame. Ces la vie.

/rant

I agree. Trading soul for numbers. A sad reality.

[Alpine F31]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

+1 to going back to roots, focusing on driving mechanics, reduce weight, and keep the power reasonable. This HP race is positively stupid. AWD and autoboxes are not fun to drive.

Totally agree but this is never going to happen. All of us that agree with you will be the guys restoring E30's, E36's and E46's because those are the cars we really pine for, only in a modern package. Those cars are not coming from BMW. The M235i is the closest thing, and it's not really that close.

I recently bought a used E85 Z4 for my son. 3.0i, NA, 6MT, manual seats, manual top, no iDrive. I LOVE it. It feels (and sounds) so much more like a "real" BMW than my F30. Of course the F30 will KILL it in speed and even in gas mileage, but I'll be damn if its more fun. It's not even close.