Stock Brakes Severe Let Down...

[gthal]

Originally Posted by TRZ06

I have no clue what the issue is on mine.

I just know that both times they measured them they were warped.

I'm on my 3rd set of rotors now and it's starting to come back already.

That's weird... I've never heard of that before. Maybe it's not the rotors. Maybe the calipers aren't functioning properly and the rotors are heating unevenly over and over.

[aboulfad]

Ok, novice here, completely stock brakes and tires (19" MPSS) with fresh brake fluid beginning of season, DSC On, with two 20mns sessions per Monday for the last 6 weeks, one day event w 6 x 20mns sessions, and another 1.5 days w 5 sessions. Brake felt great all along, didn't notice anything out of the ordinary except what looks like pad transfer (blue hazing?) on rotors. I didn't check the brake pads visually to see how much they degraded but the car and brake system delivered flawlessly at my level for all events.

I think for a novice starting out, the stock brake system is great as long you heed by some general rules, cool down lap, don't go crazy w braking, use racing lines that minimize braking, ...

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by TRZ06

I have no clue what the issue is on mine.

I just know that both times they measured them they were warped.

I'm on my 3rd set of rotors now and it's starting to come back already.

You're rotors were not warped. Uneven deposit show the exact same symptoms as warped rotors.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by aboulfad

Ok, novice here, completely stock brakes and tires (19" MPSS) with fresh brake fluid beginning of season, DSC On, with two 20mns sessions per Monday for the last 6 weeks, one day event w 6 x 20mns sessions, and another 1.5 days w 5 sessions. Brake felt great all along, didn't notice anything out of the ordinary except what looks like pad transfer (blue hazing?) on rotors. I didn't check the brake pads visually to see how much they degraded but the car and brake system delivered flawlessly at my level for all events.

I think for a novice starting out, the stock brake system is great as long you heed by some general rules, cool down lap, don't go crazy w braking, use racing lines that minimize braking, ...

Stock brakes are fine for beginners... give yourself a few track days and you will change your mind I was probably 4 track days before the stock brakes started scaring me. Once your speeds come up, the stock brake effectiveness goes way down

[aboulfad]

Originally Posted by gthal

Stock brakes are fine for beginners... give yourself a few track days and you will change your mind I was probably 4 track days before the stock brakes started scaring me. Once your speeds come up, the stock brake effectiveness goes way down

Ok I am up to 2.5 days and many small sessions interspersed, is 200kph not fast enough followed by fast hard braking to 120! Another factor is the OEM brake starting condition, maybe some drivers are generally worse than others in DD...

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by aboulfad

Ok I am up to 2.5 days and many small sessions interspersed, is 200kph not fast enough followed by fast hard braking to 120! Another factor is the OEM brake starting condition, maybe some drivers are generally worse than others in DD...

Stock pads will just not sustain the abuse of hard track use, period.

[YMB_M3]

Originally Posted by aboulfad

Ok I am up to 2.5 days and many small sessions interspersed, is 200kph not fast enough followed by fast hard braking to 120! Another factor is the OEM brake starting condition, maybe some drivers are generally worse than others in DD...

You also need to take into account the tires when considering wear on brake pads. With stickier tires you will wear out brake pads much more quickly since you have more grip available for braking.

[aboulfad]

Originally Posted by YMB_M3

You also need to take into account the tires when considering wear on brake pads. With stickier tires you will wear out brake pads much more quickly since you have more grip available for braking.

The MPSS are obviously less stickier and I probably baby my brakes, maybe there's a threshold where the stock brakes suddenly start breaking down and I haven't hit it yet!

[aboulfad]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Just as a tidbit, using the e-brake should not make a difference for pad deposit on the discs because the e-brake on those cars is an independent drum/shoe setup inside the rear disc hubs.

Slightly OT, Everytime I went to use the e-brake when stopping in the pits, every instructor almost yelled NOT to. I tried explaining that it has separate shoes, but does it not also make contact with the inside of a hot rotor and hence would shorten their lifetime?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by aboulfad

Slightly OT, Everytime I went to use the e-brake when stopping in the pits, every instructor almost yelled NOT to. I tried explaining that it has separate shoes, but does it not also make contact with the inside of a hot rotor or just the wheel hub?

Since we have all been drilled for so many years to NEVER use the handbrake, it's become a hard reflex for the majority of instructors. Further, not many people understand the technicality of a "separate drum brake".

The drum is inside the aluminum hub. The hub and rotor are thermally isolated by the pins. Further, the shoes inside the drum do not get very hot since they are not used around the track, so they are unlikely to put down an imprint when applied in the paddock. Even further, if the shoes would by miracle put an imprint inside the drum, the brakes would only "suffer from shudder" when applying the hand brake while the car is moving; who cares about that.

[TRZ06]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

You're rotors were not warped. Uneven deposit show the exact same symptoms as warped rotors.

THEY WERE WARPED!!!!

They took them off and measured the runout on them.

I have the printouts

[MyFragileHalogen]

Originally Posted by aboulfad

The MPSS are obviously less stickier and I probably baby my brakes, maybe there's a threshold where the stock brakes suddenly start breaking down and I haven't hit it yet!

There will be a time you also end up with no brake pad and the dealership threatens you that you ruined the rotors blah blah you need to pay $$$$. But thanks to the forum we all know the truth.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by TRZ06

THEY WERE WARPED!!!!

They took them off and measured the runout on them.

I have the printouts

Uneven pad deposit will also show run-outs that out of spec, it's the bad run out from the pad deposit that causes the shudder. Read the Stoptech article.

[aboulfad]

Originally Posted by MyFragileHalogen

There will be a time you also end up with no brake pad and the dealership threatens you that you ruined the rotors blah blah you need to pay $$$$. But thanks to the forum we all know the truth.

Yeah, unfortunately in Canada, brake pads/rotors are not covered in the maintenance program, so we end up paying regardless. However, having read a lot, I knew not to expect much from the stock brakes and was gambling a bit to see how long they last with my driving habits on/off the track.

So far so good for me! I realize that if the stock ones are toast soon that I'd need to buy two pairs if I want to continue tracking (one for DD, RS19 for track) which in hindsight would be more expensive have I originally bought the Pagids and swap them. But I was being lazy...

[aboulfad]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Uneven pad deposit will also show run-outs that out of spec, it's the bad run out from the pad deposit that causes the shudder. Read the Stoptech article.

Is this the pad transfer that causes the shudder/run-outs and people think it's "warped" rotors? It's like a bluish transfer from the pads and can't recall if it disappears with daily driving or not... it's pretty much on all of my 4 rotors.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by aboulfad

Is this the pad transfer that causes the shudder/run-outs and people think it's "warped" rotors? It's like a bluish transfer from the pads and can't recall if it disappears with daily driving or not... it's pretty much on all of my 4 rotors.

That absolutely looks like pad transfer to me. Whether it causes vibration or not, I can't say but it is pad transfer.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by aboulfad

Is this the pad transfer that causes the shudder/run-outs and people think it's "warped" rotors? It's like a bluish transfer from the pads and can't recall if it disappears with daily driving or not... it's pretty much on all of my 4 rotors.

Brakes rely on two types of friction to operate, adhesive (transfer) friction and abrasive friction. Different types of brake pads rely on varying proportions of the two friction types.

Pad transfer is essential for adhesive friction, so it is not a bad thing at all. Track pads rely mostly on adhesive friction, so they will show an even greater amount of pad transfer. Generating pad transfer is the whole point behind bedding brakes.

What is bad is UNEVEN pad deposit, which usually is the result of pads overheating and smearing pad material unevenly over the disc surface. This can be exacerbated when a pad imprint (from applying a hot pad on a hot disc while stationary for example) is present prior. Since uneven pad deposit is uneven (duh!), it varies the thickness of the disc; therefore the disc can have run-outs that are out of spec. This is a major reason uneven deposit are often misdiagnosed as warped rotors (even by dealers).

[aboulfad]

Ok thanks for the explanation and confirmation that this is normal, I don't notice any shudder or vibrations, so I am good !

[shaftwhy]

Sorry being rude, but dealers are stupid. They don't understand pad deposit at all. The measurement they did was pointless.

I had the same issue and got all rotors/pads replaced by dealer. The issues came back just in one track session.

The solution? Track Pads. And I am very happy about it.

Originally Posted by TRZ06

THEY WERE WARPED!!!!

They took them off and measured the runout on them.

I have the printouts

[F82K2S0]

Originally Posted by gthal

Stock brakes are fine for beginners... give yourself a few track days and you will change your mind I was probably 4 track days before the stock brakes started scaring me. Once your speeds come up, the stock brake effectiveness goes way down

When you say stock brakes, you really mean to say oem street pads used on the track correct?

If you use a quality track pad (endless me20) on track you will agree the OEM brakes work great on the track for non beginners when you use the correct pads. Don't fault the calipers on a track day when using the wrong pads for the track.

Can you imagine how many people would be complaining about how loud and abnoxious the sounds coming from there brakes are if they drove on the street with proper track pads? Same thing going on with this thread in reverse, you need track pads for the track not oem street pads.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by dirtride858

When you say stock brakes, you really mean to say oem street pads used on the track correct?

If you use a quality track pad (endless me20) on track you will agree the OEM brakes work great on the track for non beginners when you use the correct pads. Don't fault the calipers on a track day when using the wrong pads for the track.

Can you imagine how many people would be complaining about how loud and abnoxious the sounds coming from there brakes are if they drove on the street with proper track pads? Same thing going on with this thread in reverse, you need track pads for the track not oem street pads.

Yes, sorry To clarify, I meant the pads. The OEM calipers and rotors are more than fine... I think they worked flawlessly. It's just the pads and fluid that need to be swapped for intermediate and advanced drivers.

[Kevin G]

Rookie question. I have my first track day coming up at Buttonwillow. If I get track pads installed prior, would I still be able to run them as a daily driver afterwards? Or do I need to swap back on street pads? I plan on using this car for 90% street and 10% track; wondering if I can avoid separate pads/tires for each usage.