[elitex]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

I agree, I've never been in love with the A7/RS7 rear end either. I wish they would just make it a little shorter. But the interior of the new A7 I am in love with and I feel is light years ahead of BMW. I've owned the F10 so long now that I really think that BMW should have taken more bold steps to make the interior different than what the G30/F90 is today. I'm not saying that I love the E63S interior either, but I do think that it is at least different enough to be exciting or polarizing at the least. Then again, I'm one of those people who love the E60 and it's interior/exterior designs, where most people hated it.

Now that the MotorTrend review is out and I've personally driven both the F90 and the E63S, I should have ended the novel with the final point of: F90 M5, Fast? Yes. Special? No. The end.

I won't make any new threads on the subject nor make any new points but only respond to threads that people have made that have a direct counterpoint to my posts for a civilized debate. Thanks for playing.

Oh come one. Don't take it personally.

One thing to note. You've owned your F10 for some time now and I can see why familiar is not a good thing for you. I get that. But I still think that F90 is huge step up in interior quality and feel over F10.

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by elitex

Oh come one. Don't take it personally.

One thing to note. You've owned your F10 for some time now and I can see why familiar is not a good thing for you. I get that. But I still think that F90 is huge step up in interior quality and feel over F10.

What's to take personally sir? I never take anything on this forum seriously. Lol!

I respect your opinion that it's huge step up over the F10, but you say that without giving any specifics. Pinpoint exactly how it is a huge step up. Let's hear it cupcake. I may offer a contradistinction to your point of views, but that doesn't mean that you are wrong or I am right. This is a forum, let's talk about these things like gentlemen. I love the debate. Besides, isn't it good to have a little ying and yang on these forums to keep things interesting?

Edit: And if you are wondering what influences my demeanor on this forum, Lups is my guide.

[elitex]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

What's to take personally sir? I never take anything on this forum seriously. Lol!

I respect your opinion that it's huge step up over the F10, but you say that without giving any specifics. Pinpoint exactly how it is a huge step up. Let's hear it cupcake. I may offer a contradistinction to your point of views, but that doesn't mean that you are wrong or I am right. This is a forum, let's talk about these things like gentlemen. I love the debate. Besides, isn't it good to have a little ying and yang on these forums to keep things interesting?

Edit: And if you are wondering what influences my demeanor on this forum, Lups is my guide.

Haven't seen Lups around in a while.

Ok, here goes.

-Digital gauge
-Digital AC controls
-B&W is much better than B&O
-Speakers are lit at night like the M6 which M5 didn't have. Adds to the atmosphere.
-Better seats
-Leather feels better. This I don't understand. BMW calls it Merino on M3/M4 also which didn't feel very good, smooth but hard.
-overall design language (my opinion)
- placement of M1 and M2 buttons
-Red start button ( little things adds up)
- updated tech. Has stuff you couldn't get in F10 ( adds to a better ownership experience)

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by elitex

Haven't seen Lups around in a while.

Ok, here goes.

Now were talking.

Oh yeah, and I talk to Lups just about every other day. She is as crazy as she has ever been, but I still love her.

-Digital gauge - I agree it's pretty cool, but let's not forget the CTS-V had one of these 2 full years before the F90 M5 came out. On the other side of the coin, do I wish the F10 M5 had a fully digital cluster? Nope. It's cool but analog gauges aren't dead yet.

-Digital AC controls - The F10 A/C controls were technically digital too, but I get what you are saying.

-B&W is much better than B&O - 100% agree here, the B&W is superior. It's honestly my favorite interior upgrade on the F90 from the F10.

-Speakers are lit at night like the M6 which M5 didn't have. Adds to the atmosphere. - I hadn't considered this. Good point.

-Better seats - Agree, seats look/feel more comfortable, but what do you think about the fact that the F90 seats no longer come with foldable headrests? I used that feature every time I get in the car and I love it. This bothers me about the F90 seats. I also love the Massage Function give you a back rub now too.

-Leather feels better. This I don't understand. BMW calls it Merino on M3/M4 also which didn't feel very good, smooth but hard. - The Merino leather feels the same as the F10 M5 to me, and I've been sitting in Merino for almost 6 years now. Let's not forget that we no longer get full Merino Leather on the lower doors after dishing out $3,500 for the "Full Leather" option. Now we have to spend $5,000 to get the doors fully covered. What is BMW becoming? Porsche? This bothers me a lot!

-overall design language (my opinion) - Gotta disagree with you here. This is my main beef with both BMW and ///M Division. Here are my points:

1. Upper dash looks nothing special. Then the iDrive Screen breaks it up and looks out of place, but it could've been worse. A lot worse.

2. Center console where A/C and Radio controls are located, nothing too drastic from F10 design here. The main difference is that there is a now more of a hole for a place to throw your mobile phone for wireless charging. It doesn't look good to me. The F10 center console area flowed better with that area meeting the lower console and flowing in one design.

3. Then there's the lower console, in which the armrest now angles away from the driver, and looks like a glacier. It looks like the armrest was an afterthought with this aesthetic. For the F90 M5 ///M Division didn't even bother to give the lower console it's own unique design with a unique base plate for the gear shifter like they did for the E60 and the F10 M5's. Instead they just added an extra button for the exhaust flaps. This is complete laziness in my book. I never expected this from ///M.

4. One thing I do like, are the extra cup holders/cubby holes on the lower door areas on the interior. Extra space to put more junk is always a good thing.

5. What's up the with the Paddle Shifters man? Same as a 530i? No bueno. Although in all fairness, the 2013 F10 M5 also featured the same paddle shifter design as the F10 528i M Sports Package, however the rubber was different on the F10 M5 paddle shifters. Why does ///M continue to do this?

6. Complete Redesign. If you take a look at the Audi A7 interior, you will see a design that looks nothing like no other Audi before it. I'm not saying that BMW should also go with an interior that has no physical buttons and knobs, but I think there's a way to design something more forward reaching while keeping traditional buttons and knobs. Maybe the new 8-Series will pave the way?

- placement of M1 and M2 buttons - Hadn't really thought of the M button placement as an advantage but I can definitely see your point, and I think it's nice to have those buttons separate off of the steering wheel to make them more accessible and to distinct the F90 more from the regular G30. Good point.

-Red start button ( little things adds up) - Definitely a cool change. I concur.

- updated tech. Has stuff you couldn't get in F10 ( adds to a better ownership experience) - Okay, true, but I think even the new tech is a bit underwhelming, or at least I would expect something a lot different. Just like how the F10 M5 got surround view cameras where as the E60 M5 was not offered with any such option? Where is the really cool tech like maybe Autonomous Driving capabilities? However, I think maybe in general these kinds of tech have perhaps reached their limits on cars? I mean where do we go from here? I dunno. So I don't think its a bad thing that the F90 has wireless charging and stuff, I was just hoping for something more innovative. But I hope too much. Lol!

Overall, I think when the new 8-Series and ///M8 come out and we get to see what BMW wants to look like in the future, it will change a lot of our perceptions. It's just that the 5-Series used to be that trend setting car, but I still see a lot of traditional design we've been seeing in BMW's for the last 7-8 years in the G30/F90 . This is my main point. But I guess I'll still sit in the penalty box for 2 minutes for Roughing since I'm here on the F90 forum.

Good discussion though.

[windtendo]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

- updated tech. Has stuff you couldn't get in F10 ( adds to a better ownership experience) - Okay, true, but I think even the new tech is a bit underwhelming, or at least I would expect something a lot different. Just like how the F10 M5 got surround view cameras where as the E60 M5 was not offered with any such option? Where is the really cool tech like maybe Autonomous Driving capabilities? However, I think maybe in general these kinds of tech have perhaps reached their limits on cars? I mean where do we go from here? I dunno. So I don't think its a bad thing that the F90 has wireless charging and stuff, I was just hoping for something more innovative. But I hope too much. Lol!

What about night vision? That wasn't a technology offered in the F10. The surround cameras look like they've been upgraded a little too... I would certainly agree its not a quantum leap from the F10, but it's substantial.

[elitex]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Now were talking. :

Oh yeah, and I talk to Lups just about every other day. She is as crazy as she has ever been, but I still love her.

-Digital gauge - I agree it's pretty cool, but let's not forget the CTS-V had one of these 2 full years before the F90 M5 came out. On the other side of the coin, do I wish the F10 M5 had a fully digital cluster? Nope. It's cool but analog gauges aren't dead yet.

M5's digital gauge is much nicer. I owned a 16 Escalade platinum for a year.

-Digital AC controls - The F10 A/C controls were technically digital too, but I get what you are saying.

-B&W is much better than B&O - 100% agree here, the B&W is superior. It's honestly my favorite interior upgrade on the F90 from the F10.

-Speakers are lit at night like the M6 which M5 didn't have. Adds to the atmosphere. - I hadn't considered this. Good point.

-Better seats - Agree, seats look/feel more comfortable, but what do you think about the fact that the F90 seats no longer come with foldable headrests? I used that feature every time I get in the car and I love it. This bothers me about the F90 seats. I also love the Massage Function give you a back rub now too.

Never used the foldable headrest so didn't even notice.

-Leather feels better. This I don't understand. BMW calls it Merino on M3/M4 also which didn't feel very good, smooth but hard. - The Merino leather feels the same as the F10 M5 to me, and I've been sitting in Merino for almost 6 years now. Let's not forget that we no longer get full Merino Leather on the lower doors after dishing out $3,500 for the "Full Leather" option. Now we have to spend $5,000 to get the doors fully covered. What is BMW becoming? Porsche? This bothers me a lot!

The only difference is that bottom of the doors are not covered. That's it. I get what you're saying though.

-overall design language (my opinion) - Gotta disagree with you here. This is my main beef with both BMW and ///M Division. Here are my points:

Let's agree to disagree on this one

1. Upper dash looks nothing special. Then the iDrive Screen breaks it up and looks out of place, but it could've been worse. A lot worse.

2. Center console where A/C and Radio controls are located, nothing too drastic from F10 design here. The main difference is that there is a now more of a hole for a place to throw your mobile phone for wireless charging. It doesn't look good to me. The F10 center console area flowed better with that area meeting the lower console and flowing in one design.

3. Then there's the lower console, in which the armrest now angles away from the driver, and looks like a glacier. It looks like the armrest was an afterthought with this aesthetic. For the F90 M5 ///M Division didn't even bother to give the lower console it's own unique design with a unique base plate for the gear shifter like they did for the E60 and the F10 M5's. Instead they just added an extra button for the exhaust flaps. This is complete laziness in my book. I never expected this from ///M.

4. One thing I do like, are the extra cup holders/cubby holes on the lower door areas on the interior. Extra space to put more junk is always a good thing.

5. What's up the with the Paddle Shifters man? Same as a 530i? No bueno. Although in all fairness, the 2013 F10 M5 also featured the same paddle shifter design as the F10 528i M Sports Package, however the rubber was different on the F10 M5 paddle shifters. Why does ///M continue to do this?

6. Complete Redesign. If you take a look at the Audi A7 interior, you will see a design that looks nothing like no other Audi before it. I'm not saying that BMW should also go with an interior that has no physical buttons and knobs, but I think there's a way to design something more forward reaching while keeping traditional buttons and knobs. Maybe the new 8-Series will pave the way?

- placement of M1 and M2 buttons - Hadn't really thought of the M button placement as an advantage but I can definitely see your point, and I think it's nice to have those buttons separate off of the steering wheel to make them more accessible and to distinct the F90 more from the regular G30. Good point.

-Red start button ( little things adds up) - Definitely a cool change. I concur.

- updated tech. Has stuff you couldn't get in F10 ( adds to a better ownership experience) - Okay, true, but I think even the new tech is a bit underwhelming, or at least I would expect something a lot different. Just like how the F10 M5 got surround view cameras where as the E60 M5 was not offered with any such option? Where is the really cool tech like maybe Autonomous Driving capabilities? However, I think maybe in general these kinds of tech have perhaps reached their limits on cars? I mean where do we go from here? I dunno. So I don't think its a bad thing that the F90 has wireless charging and stuff, I was just hoping for something more innovative. But I hope too much. Lol!

It does have semi autonomous driving. Full laser cruise with stop and go, lane keeping assist even around curves. Also, all around camera is much much better.

Overall, I think when the new 8-Series and ///M8 come out and we get to see what BMW wants to look like in the future, it will change a lot of our perceptions. It's just that the 5-Series used to be that trend setting car, but I still see a lot of traditional design we've been seeing in BMW's for the last 7-8 years in the G30/F90 . This is my main point. But I guess I'll still sit in the penalty box for 2 minutes for Roughing since I'm here on the F90 forum.

Good discussion though. :cool!

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by windtendo

What about night vision? That wasn't a technology offered in the F10. The surround cameras look like they've been upgraded a little too... I would certainly agree its not a quantum leap from the F10, but it's substantial.

Night vision was offered on the F10.

[supershaft]

Originally Posted by elitex

Haven't seen Lups around in a while.

Ok, here goes.

-Digital gauge
-Digital AC controls
-B&W is much better than B&O
-Speakers are lit at night like the M6 which M5 didn't have. Adds to the atmosphere.
-Better seats
-Leather feels better. This I don't understand. BMW calls it Merino on M3/M4 also which didn't feel very good, smooth but hard.
-overall design language (my opinion)
- placement of M1 and M2 buttons
-Red start button ( little things adds up)
- updated tech. Has stuff you couldn't get in F10 ( adds to a better ownership experience)

F10 B&O did have the front door speakers (by the window) lit but it wasn't very bright.

The rest of the items like the digital dash and AC are coming to or are already in new flagship vehicles like MB and Audi.

The leather feels exactly the same as my F10 M5. The updated tech isn't anything groundbreaking. sure wifi charging is nice but a lot of cars have had that plus the wifi hotspot for years.

I have to agree with RPIM5 here, the F90 M5 feels like a refresh of the F10 instead of something evolutionary. That's a huge reason why I went with the 2018 RS7 instead of the new M5.

Not that I'm completely writing off BMW because we just bought a 2018 530e for my wife (fantastic vehicle btw) but I think the M5 lacks a bit of the panache and aggressive styling that was present on the F10. That said I'm still eager to see what the LCI refresh will look like and see what the competition has to offer now that hybrid powertrains for will be more prevalent.

[elitex]

Originally Posted by supershaft

F10 B&O did have the front door speakers (by the window) lit but it wasn't very bright.

The rest of the items like the digital dash and AC are coming to or are already in new flagship vehicles like MB and Audi.

The leather feels exactly the same as my F10 M5. The updated tech isn't anything groundbreaking. sure wifi charging is nice but a lot of cars have had that plus the wifi hotspot for years.

I have to agree with RPIM5 here, the F90 M5 feels like a refresh of the F10 instead of something evolutionary. That's a huge reason why I went with the 2018 RS7 instead of the new M5.

Not that I'm completely writing off BMW because we just bought a 530e for my wife (fantastic vehicle btw) but I think the M5 lacks a bit of the panache and aggressive styling that was present on the F10.

Like I said. Agree to disagree on some of these things. Personally I've owned 3 different F10's and F90 feels far from a refresh.

[Herofmine]

Why everyone talking about that F90 has improved quality? I don't agree on that i own F10 M5 with full leather and already sat on F90 with full leather i saw many things that quality was step down from F10! Yes design of certain thighs looks better but not the quality. And i hate that floating idrive screen, at least they could've make it better those huge thick black edges around screen mehh, they could make more sleek looking eggless screen would look modern.
It's not all about which is faster, a lot of things in terms of quality and design should make sense,
Benz being much heavier and with panoramic roof almost equally as fast aa f90 imagine if Benz would remove that roof and put Carbon roof, F90 wouldn't even have a chance to hold a candle. I am not biased by brand i am a realist and this my opinion.

[JMD]

I have nothing against the new F90,...Zilch - Zero! But! I'm glad the MT reviewer is speaking for himself regarding the F10 M5! As for me,...I think it is,...and will go down in history as the best looking M5 BMW has made to date!,...and potentially of all time!

But,...some of you don't hear me though!!!!!

[JMD]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Cooincidentally, I've also driven the new Honda Accord, and I gotta say I was surprised. It does drive pretty well. Lots of feedback too.

It's hard for Honda to build a bad Accord!

Originally Posted by RPiM5

In my view the F90 M5 is the fastest M5 / Sports Sedan in existence today, but it's also the worst M5 ever made, for many small reasons that an M5 enthusiast like me cares about.

I really hope that the next M5 is a re-birth of the BMW M5,...

Perhaps BMW should do a reset back to the E28! Make only 5 available exterior colors,....Sapphire Black, Singapore Grey, Silverstone II Metalic, Indianapolis Red Metalic, and Interlagos Blue! And slap in an 8200 RPM screaming V-8!

Tranny: But of course,...an old school 3-pedal manual,....and make it a 7-Speed while their at it!

Through in the F90's AWD system for giggles~

BTW,...good read!

[ASAP]

Personally... I think everyone of these cars is now the same and comes down to preference... all ttv8, all awd, all auto... difference being Audi had this figured out 5 years ago.

[elitex]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Personally... I think everyone of these cars is now the same and comes down to preference... all ttv8, all awd, all auto... difference being Audi had this figured out 5 years ago.

True. Same with turbo 4's, now everyone and their grandma's are following them.

[6ixSpd]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Personally... I think everyone of these cars is now the same and comes down to preference... all ttv8, all awd, all auto... difference being Audi had this figured out 5 years ago.

This.

[Takumi587]

I went to LA auto show to specifically look and sit in the M5 and it was not as exciting in person... walked over to the Mercedes E63 and was blown away by the interior and exterior. The M5 felt as big as a 7 series inside... Hate to say it but I would get the E63 over the M5 now.

All personal opinion but if I am looking at this size of sedan then E63 hands down. I personally think the F10 was a beautiful car and had more of an aggressive look than the current.

The M2 on the other hand looks awesome. Makes me more excited to see what the next gen M3 will look like. Hopefully better than the M5.

[richard in NC]

Quite a variety of opinions for an F90 board. But many of you have been around the block and owned many different brands so I'm sure personal preferences exists...

This is no different than the Nikon vs Canon vs Sony on photog boards..

[KevinM]

Crazy performance. I'm planning for a manual transmission M2 competition to be my next DD, but this has me at least theoretically considering a large 4000 lb automatic sedan...

[Remonster]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Personally... I think everyone of these cars is now the same and comes down to preference... all ttv8, all awd, all auto... difference being Audi had this figured out 5 years ago.

The other difference is the Audi is still understeering off a cliff as evidenced by the figure 8 times of the RS7, E63S, and M5.

"She handles great, too. In our figure-eight testing the M5 put down a 23.3-second lap. That’s extraordinary. That’s 1.1 seconds off of a Lamborghini Huracán Performante with triple-sticky tires and 0.9 second behind the alien-technology-infused McLaren 720S. As for the direct competition, the E 63 S does a 23.6, the RS 7 lays down a 24.6"

I haven't been in an F90 yet but you can feel a big, big difference in the way the newest E63S feels through corners vs the more stable and unwilling-to-change-direction RS7. The E63 does an amazing job of behaving like a RWD car that just happens to shoot itself forward. Even in its normal drive modes, you can steer it with the throttle and its front end grips extremely well. I was so impressed by the E63S that I was sure the F90 M5 would never come out to better reviews, I'm glad to have been wrong and to hear a lot of people reviewing it so favorably.

[goj]

Some people don't care for bmw interiors but I love the elegant simplicity. Sit in a new Mercedes E or S class and it looks almost cartoonish like you just walked up to a Vegas casino.

"Car enthusiasts" are getting to a point where everyone complains about everything. People want change but then complain about it then when something doesn't change, like BMw overall design language, people complain!

[JRobUSC]

Originally Posted by Herofmine

Benz being much heavier and with panoramic roof almost equally as fast aa f90 imagine if Benz would remove that roof and put Carbon roof, F90 wouldn't even have a chance to hold a candle. I am not biased by brand i am a realist and this my opinion.

Imagine if Benz made it a spaceship, or a time machine. I mean, if we're going to give Benz credit for imagining things they didn't do, they didn't do those, either. BTW if you're relying on imaginary reasoning for why one car COULD be better than another but isn't currently, then you're not a "realist".

This is the base M5. It's already as good or better than the E63 S, and the competition package version will be even better, no imagination required. But hey, I'm a realist.

[JRobUSC]

Originally Posted by supershaft

F90 M5 feels like a refresh of the F10 instead of something evolutionary. That's a huge reason why I went with the 2018 RS7 instead of the new M5.

That's the previous generation RS7, correct? So to be clear, you bought the old, completely unrefreshed version of a different car, that was a generation behind the new M5 and due for a complete overhaul? Could it maybe be that, even if it was subconsciously, you just wanted something different than what you already had? Because the argument you just made against the new M5 you could make x10 for the car you ended up buying. Not trying to be a dick or anything, your reasoning is just counter intuitive.