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      03-11-2014, 01:35 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post
The choice is easy for me. For any given car, as long as it offers an automatic transmission that outclasses its manual counter part, I would choose the automatic. Otherwise, I shift my own gears.

I don't understand those who "must" have manuals. I can understand those who only drive automatics (my wife), but why would ANY self proclaimed "car enthusiast" limit himself to a manual transmission?
As far as I'm concerned, I love 6MT.
I hate it when ppl say enthusiasts only drive manuals or the other way round. Its simply one's personal choice.
I do enjoy automatic once in a while as a loaner or occasional rental, but just for a day or two. For me it becomes boring. I really don't care about 0-60 timings, I don't race on public roads.

Here is my answer to your question which you don't understand :
I enjoy engaging my 2 hands and legs with my car, I enjoy the sound of moving stick shifter, I enjoy when I can manipulate the shifting when I want to hear some specific sound from the Performance exhaust (though you can do it with DCT as well) and my wife enjoys 6MT sitting next to me.
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      03-11-2014, 01:38 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinlevrone View Post
Just tell me, how do you go from a stop light with wheel spin - for a little fun - in a non-manual gearbox ? In an automatic, do you keep stressing the torque converter with brake boosting for tens of seconds until the light turns green ? And how do you do this with a DCT ? Do you have to engage the (sometimes nonexisting) launch control ?
I did it in my e92 M3 all the time. Very easy...just punch the gas from a stop and you can spin the hell out of the tires. No launch control or brake boosting needed.
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      03-11-2014, 01:40 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Blindside_137 View Post
First the MT will go, then cars will eventually be autonomous....

I'm just glad the MT is still around for the time being. My next car will be an M3 6MT no question.
Automatic transmissions are ancient tech at this point. The sky isn't falling.
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      03-11-2014, 02:05 PM   #92
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I don't get this "need" for manual transmission. My cars have only been manual, I have driven some automatics/dual-clutches, and I can't say what I prefer more. It depends on the car. If a comfortable/luxury car, I'd prefer automatic, if a simple/hard-core/fun car I'd prefer manual.

I really don't see what is so special about driving a manual, most privately owned cars in Europe are manual, or other wise said, the more expensive the car, the less likely to be manual. You won't find too many manual BMW 530d, but very many of 318d are manual.

I don't know, but driver involvement has little to do with manual. It is about the whole package. I have really no fun driving 60 PS cars, eventhough they have manual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gds52 View Post
As far as I'm concerned, I love 6MT.
I hate it when ppl say enthusiasts only drive manuals or the other way round. Its simply one's personal choice.
Exactly. And very often the financial aspect is also a decisional factor.
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      03-11-2014, 02:05 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafkaesque320 View Post
Automatic transmissions are ancient tech at this point. The sky isn't falling.
I believe what he means is that cars will be driverless. At least that is what I took from autonomous.
And Google and others are working on driverless cars.
The sky has fallen...
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      03-11-2014, 02:20 PM   #94
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No complaints here...Porsche is doing the same with their new models. My great-grandchildren probably wont even be able to control their cars on the road as we move towards automatic driving systems. Glad i'll be long gone before this happens.
Ha...for once I am ok with being older than the avg forum member
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      03-11-2014, 02:23 PM   #95
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Funny, I wanted a 6MT 335i so I held out for one, now that I have it I wish I had an auto lol I just think the manual trans in my E92 is terrible, a few steps up than the one from my first car, an '87 Sentra, but just a few. Its as if the car doesnt want to be driven hard or even shifted quickly. I enjoy the car but thats one thing I would go back and change if I could.
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      03-11-2014, 02:23 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post
More control: I get this. Some people simply can't handle it without more control.

More engaging: Maybe, but why does your train stop at manual transmission? Why not boycott drive by wire, power steering....etc and everything else that makes modern cars less engaging?

More fun: I can't argue with this one. However, perhaps you just don't know how to have fun with an auto gear box. No?
As far as the technology that has taken away from the driving experience, I don't like it. The drive by wire throttle in my M3 has never felt right to me. The electric assist steering in the F30 felt numb and over-assisted. I don't understand why every new car needs a screen sticking straight out of the dash to tell me when someone updates their facebook page(The MK3 Audi TT instrument cluster looks to be a nice solution or even the A3 folding screen so I don't have to look at it). Hell, if I had the choice, I would choose NA over turbo. There is nothing better than a high revving NA engine with instant throttle response. I hate turbo lag.

I haven't found an auto that is fun yet, but I also haven't tried the DCT since it is barely available. At this point, spending $70k on an M3 is not going to make me want to switch to the DCT. If it was offered in the standard 2 and 3-series cars, then maybe. The 8-sp auto is not good enough to me.
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      03-11-2014, 02:33 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IS3andME View Post
I believe what he means is that cars will be driverless. At least that is what I took from autonomous.
And Google and others are working on driverless cars.
The sky has fallen...
Not in our lifetime. People don't seem to give enough thought to the existing infrastructure and cost of the driverless car. We're nowhere near that being a reality.. Decades away I would suspect. They really thought that electric vehicles would blow up and dominate too but thus far, no. Gas self-piloted vehicles will dominate for a while.

I agree with a previous poster's comment on drive by wire. To me, that development was far worse for control and driver involvement than the AT>
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      03-11-2014, 02:46 PM   #98
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6 speed all the way brother
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      03-11-2014, 02:59 PM   #99
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I'm 30 years young, and most (no take that back) all of my friends have stopped buying manual transmissions, and have certainly stopped modding their cars. My best friend, who pulled a Rockford on a Z4 when we were unattended and given keys to drive around town at a BMW ultimate driving experience when we were teenagers....he now drives a Prius. I'm the last enthusiast, as it were. I've owned six cars in my 15 years of driving, with an even split between MT and AT. Until now.

I get it, adulthood sets in, and most adults are satisfied in purchasing/leasing a new or used car with a host of options, and most choose to purchase automatic transmissions. If my best friend had piles of cash laying around, he would certainly have a second and third car and both would probably be manuals and they might even be slightly modded.

Then there's me, I've never owned a car that I didn't completely take apart, or at the very least attempt an entire disassembly just to implement some modification or other before turning my car over to better more capable mechanical minds. I put a navigation system in an Audi that wasn't supposed to have one, I upgraded the navigation in my current 335i to a CIC navigation. I installed short shifters myself in every manual car I've ever owned. I've done lots of other backyard modifications and taken over family and friend's garages to host surgical operations on my cars. Some projects have taken a few hours, others a few days. I mention my insatiable thirst for enthusiastic automotive modding in the form of performance, aesthetics, gadgetry, etc. because I mean to make it known I'm not entirely sensible.

Which brings me to my current car, a 2007 BMW 335i Auto retrofitted with a manual transmission. You see, I previously owned a MT 2008 BMW 335i, and in between that car and the current a Supercharged Range Rover Sport. I could have sold my current 335i and traded it in for a manual, but I chose to teach myself a lesson in converting my automatic 335i into a manual for two purposes. The first, to enjoy the manual that much more knowing the car wasn't intended to be one. The second reason for the conversion, so I would never again forget how much I enjoy driving a manual having my conversion serve as a constant reminder of my love of manual transmission. And if you're going to comment on logic, pragmatics, and sensibility please keep in mind I was and am fully aware of my lack of all of these characteristics. Manual transmissions are here to stay, at least in my retrofitted 335i.
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      03-11-2014, 03:15 PM   #100
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You're like the poster child for MT lovers.
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      03-11-2014, 03:23 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BJCO23 View Post
@Italia, interesting thing is.. I leased it and bought when lease was over last year. I guess I'm now paying the consequences but at the same time, never liked automatic transmission unless they're the ZF or DCT's.
I'm confident right customer will show up eventually who's a real "enthusiast".
Don't worry, someone will scoop up an Msport with 6MT. That's hard to find. Gorgeous car you got there though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
I don't get this "need" for manual transmission. My cars have only been manual, I have driven some automatics/dual-clutches, and I can't say what I prefer more. It depends on the car. If a comfortable/luxury car, I'd prefer automatic, if a simple/hard-core/fun car I'd prefer manual.

I really don't see what is so special about driving a manual, most privately owned cars in Europe are manual, or other wise said, the more expensive the car, the less likely to be manual. You won't find too many manual BMW 530d, but very many of 318d are manual.

I don't know, but driver involvement has little to do with manual. It is about the whole package. I have really no fun driving 60 PS cars, eventhough they have manual.



Exactly. And very often the financial aspect is also a decisional factor.
If it was my only car, yes I would "need" a manual, but this is personal preference, you don't have to try to understand it. Luckily, I'm able to own more than one car, so the M3 is manual (my fun car) and the 4Runner is automatic (DD). I appreciate that after a long day, I can just put the car in drive and cruise. I also appreciate that I can be driving in slower traffic but enjoy changing gears. Because let's be honest, how much fun is a V8 M3 when you are just driving around at 3000 RPM and 30 mph?

- One can argue a Porsche Cayman should be had with PDK because it's low relatively low power, so the PDK takes advantage of that and squeezes all the performance of the engine.
- The other person can argue, since it's not the most powerful engine, why not get MT so you can really enjoy a hell of a sports car. Hell there will always be a faster car out there so what are you trying to prove(think GTR, Corvette ect...) ?

Who is right? Both. It's all down to personal choice, which is why I hope we are still given the option.
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      03-11-2014, 03:38 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by 3er_Albtraum View Post
YES! DCT all the way!!!
+1 voted with my wallet!
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      03-11-2014, 03:41 PM   #103
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Just a thought or two

I don't know if this was touched on or not yet, but I don't think a 6 speed MT compared to a 7 speed DCT is apples to apples. I know the DCT can shift faster, which gives it an advantage.

Look at the Porsche 911s. 7 speed MT to 7 speed PDK. The mpg is nearly the same and the 0-60 is close as well. The MT gets 19/27 and the PDK gets 20/27. 0-60 is 4.3 for the MT and 4.1 for the PDK (3.9 in sport plus).

I'm not arguing one is better, to each his own, but I would love to see BMW put a 7 speed MT in the M3/M4. My current car is a 535i with steptronic, but I'm looking to move to a M4 with a MT. Even if I don't get an M4, my next car is going to be a MT.

All my other cars before that were MT and I couldn't find a 535i in a MT, so I went with an auto. It is time to switch back for me.
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      03-11-2014, 03:42 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post
And an automatic transmission stops the feeling of "piloting" a car?
I just don't get it. I've read so many posts from "manual only" people and the reasons are all equally.......... As if they've never driven a good automatics on a nice track, or a good automatic in rush hour traffic.
It doesn't stop it, it diminishes it. It's a personal choice/preference. Maybe it doesn't feel that way for you: fine. For me, it does.

I test-drove both MT and AT before getting my current car.
I do 95% commuting on highways, and 5% spirited driving in weekends.
For those 5%, I chose the MT, and the other 95% I miss the AT, solely for the comfort.

Next time, I might decide to go with AT. Getting older you know...

Edit: And no, it's not a macho thing. Everybody here learned driving MT at 18 years old. MT has been the standard in Western Europe for the last 50 years. Practically every woman who drives a car, knows how to drive MT.

Last edited by hwelvaar; 03-11-2014 at 03:49 PM..
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      03-11-2014, 03:43 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
I don't get this "need" for manual transmission. My cars have only been manual, I have driven some automatics/dual-clutches, and I can't say what I prefer more. It depends on the car. If a comfortable/luxury car, I'd prefer automatic, if a simple/hard-core/fun car I'd prefer manual.

I really don't see what is so special about driving a manual, most privately owned cars in Europe are manual, or other wise said, the more expensive the car, the less likely to be manual. You won't find too many manual BMW 530d, but very many of 318d are manual.

I don't know, but driver involvement has little to do with manual. It is about the whole package. I have really no fun driving 60 PS cars, eventhough they have manual.



Exactly. And very often the financial aspect is also a decisional factor.
Same here. Started driving in Stuttgart using a MT, loved it, but now I've owned 2 cars with DCT. There's no way I going back to a MT! DCT all the way!!
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      03-11-2014, 03:43 PM   #106
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MT is dead .

There is a 25% of people who accept changes latest than the rest 75% .
Whoever had a serious sales seminar knows that.

It is very unlikely that these people will accept something new easily.

I drove Mt for 8 years. It was hard for me to accept that a machine can replace me!
Naturally i think that its safer to grab the steering using both of my arms and this is without any doubt the most serious advantage that a good AT offers during fast driving conditions!

Forgot to say that after going dct at Z435i there is no return.

Once you go AT (dct), you never go back (Mt)
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      03-11-2014, 03:46 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elijaih View Post
I don't know if this was touched on or not yet, but I don't think a 6 speed MT compared to a 7 speed DCT is apples to apples. I know the DCT can shift faster, which gives it an advantage.

Look at the Porsche 911s. 7 speed MT to 7 speed PDK. The mpg is nearly the same and the 0-60 is close as well. The MT gets 19/27 and the PDK gets 20/27. 0-60 is 4.3 for the MT and 4.1 for the PDK (3.9 in sport plus).

I'm not arguing one is better, to each his own, but I would love to see BMW put a 7 speed MT in the M3/M4. My current car is a 535i with steptronic, but I'm looking to move to a M4 with a MT. Even if I don't get an M4, my next car is going to be a MT.

All my other cars before that were MT and I couldn't find a 535i in a MT, so I went with an auto. It is time to switch back for me.
Have you driven a car with DCT or PDK? If you haven't driven one yet, don't! If you do you will end up on the dark side!
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      03-11-2014, 03:50 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zayken View Post

Once you go AT (dct), you never go back (Mt)
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      03-11-2014, 03:51 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skypx View Post
Have you driven a car with DCT or PDK? If you haven't driven one yet, don't! If you do you will end up on the dark side!
I have driven a PDK, not a DCT though. I'm not saying they aren't great, because they are. I just enjoy MT too much!
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      03-11-2014, 04:42 PM   #110
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BMW must keep on offering it if you ask me.
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