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      03-26-2019, 12:18 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by ecaedus View Post
I think for BMW, after the fiasco that is the i3 and i8, really needs to put its best feet forward with this new wave of BEVs. this is the perfect chance to stop the onslaught of model 3 taking away sales from the regular 3 series, with model Y on the horizon this needs to happen sooner than later.

the last thing BMW wants to do now is pushing out a new generation of lame, overpriced and uncompetitive BEVs with the Model 3 and Y in full production rate and other legacy manufactures hot on its tail.

i4 can probably get away with charging a couple of grands more than model 3 while having a little bit less range, it's a BMW after all and with a much better build quality, i'm sure people will fall for it.

it's the iX3 that i'm worried about. to me it's nothing but a engine -> battery swap on a regular X3. i'm curious to see how it'll compare to the model Y
In iX3s defense it was designed with ice and hybrid and BeV in mind. The old F30 330i was just a battery taped into the trunk. This atleast does have a design for electric only. Just has the problem of trying to do everything at once.


Probably a pretty bland vehicle overall.
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      03-26-2019, 12:25 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by ecaedus View Post
yep that'd be awesome if the EPA range and price is close to Model 3. 2020 is gonna be the year legacy manufactures start to take EVs seriously, the more competition the better
Competition is always good. Plus the way Model 3 is taking over, it would be good to see other EVs on the road, if only because it makes my 3P a little less common!

Now, let's see how BMW (and everyone else) address public charging infrastructure - 3rd party options aren't cutting it.
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      03-26-2019, 12:25 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by ///M TOWN. View Post
Tesla is absolutely changing the market.

It's a great car, so don't knock it until you try it.

Let's see BMW offer continuous improvements via over-the-air-updates, like Tesla does.... Well that will never happen!
Bmw is already doing OTA updates for navigation and other things regarding infotainment in my car.

The Model 3 is a great car for what it is but BMW should now take their time to release a quality product - it can afford to because all their eggs aren't in one electric basket.

Working in tech in the Bay Area, I have tried it. Many co-workers have one. With every update they get better but the software was half baked on release. No getting around that fact.

BMW won't have that level of tolerance that seems to have come from Tesla's "first mover" advantage. So they should take their time and get it right
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      03-26-2019, 12:30 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by goj View Post
Bmw is already doing OTA updates for navigation and other things regarding infotainment in my car.

The Model 3 is a great car for what it is but BMW should now take their time to release a quality product - it can afford to because all their eggs aren't in one electric basket.

Working in tech in the Bay Area, I have tried it. Many co-workers have one. With every update they get better but the software was half baked on release. No getting around that fact.

BMW won't have that level of tolerance that seems to have come from Tesla's "first mover" advantage. So they should take their time and get it right
Tesla's software is really good now... Excellent actually.

If it wasn't for Tesla, BMW would not be doing much of anything.

BMW is dragging their feet, is in no hurry, and is truly paying a huge price accordingly.
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      03-26-2019, 12:56 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
600km WLTP from the expected 80kWh battery would mean a huge leap in efficiency and a parity with Model 3. No other legacy manufacturer has managed to do that yet. If BMW hits this number, the only thing that could stop it from grabbing a huge chunk of the EV market will be pricing: top level i4 would have to start under $60K to compete with Model 3 AWD, which is the closest match to it.
Will be strong competition I like the look of the Polestar 2 and Google Android Auto fully integrated.

https://www.polestar.com/uk/cars/polestar-2
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      03-26-2019, 01:04 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by ///M TOWN. View Post
Let's see BMW offer continuous improvements via, over-the-air-updates, like Tesla does.
BMW already offers OTA updates starting with G20. Prior to that it was only limited to maps, etc.
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      03-26-2019, 01:06 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
i4 will not compete with Model 3 Performance. If i4 60 sDrive drives better than Model 3 SR RWD that will be enough. If i4 80 xDrive drives better than Model 3 LR AWD that will be enough.
I agree that a Model 3 P competitor is neither BMW's focus nor priority right now, nor should it be.

But, with regard to competing with the other higher volume Model 3 trim levels, it is not sufficient for BMW's product to simply "drive better" (nor be better in other areas including, just for example, tech, quality, or service). It must be offered at a price people are willing to pay, and that is where the real challenge lies.

In the US at least, BMW will have the full tax credit until they reach 200k EV sales, so that will help. But even with that in play, they are in a tough spot. Margins on the Model 3 SR are thin at best, and that's with a 50kW battery instead of the 60 kW battery BMW has apparently determined they need to cover the powertrain efficiency deficit. So BMW will have little room to play with MSRP. Furthermore, they knick their more profitable ICE business with each 4 Series (or 3 Series) sale the i4 costs them.

Therefore, while the i4 is still over a year away, it isn't clear how low BMW will be able to get with the MSRP. Perhaps they do not need a $35k i4 60 to compete with Tesla. But they probably have to do better than a $45k i4 60, and that might mean putting themselves in a risky place.
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      03-26-2019, 01:14 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I agree that a Model 3 P competitor is neither BMW's focus nor priority right now, nor should it be.

But, with regard to competing with the other higher volume Model 3 trim levels, it is not sufficient for BMW's product to simply "drive better" (nor be better in other areas including, just for example, tech, quality, or service). It must be offered at a price people are willing to pay, and that is where the real challenge lies.

In the US at least, BMW will have the full tax credit until they reach 200k EV sales, so that will help. But even with that in play, they are in a tough spot. Margins on the Model 3 SR are thin at best, and that's with a 50kW battery instead of the 60 kW battery BMW has apparently determined they need to cover the powertrain efficiency deficit. So BMW will have little room to play with MSRP. Furthermore, they knick their more profitable ICE business with each 4 Series (or 3 Series) sale the i4 costs them.

Therefore, while the i4 is still over a year away, it isn't clear how low BMW will be able to get with the MSRP. Perhaps they do not need a $35k i4 60 to compete with Tesla. But they probably have to do better than a $45k i4 60, and that might mean putting themselves in a risky place.
You hit the nail on the head. Real issue for BMW and all other traditional car makers is one of margin at least at this stage of development. ICE cars carry much higher gross margins than electric cars until such time battery technology evolve and economies of scale kick in.

None of the traditional players want to be in Tesla's financial status where you haemorrhage cash. That said kudos to Tesla for putting pressure on traditional players to do the right thing.
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      03-26-2019, 01:18 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I agree that a Model 3 P competitor is neither BMW's focus nor priority right now, nor should it be.

But, with regard to competing with the other higher volume Model 3 trim levels, it is not sufficient for BMW's product to simply "drive better" (nor be better in other areas including, just for example, tech, quality, or service). It must be offered at a price people are willing to pay, and that is where the real challenge lies.

In the US at least, BMW will have the full tax credit until they reach 200k EV sales, so that will help. But even with that in play, they are in a tough spot. Margins on the Model 3 SR are thin at best, and that's with a 50kW battery instead of the 60 kW battery BMW has apparently determined they need to cover the powertrain efficiency deficit. So BMW will have little room to play with MSRP. Furthermore, they knick their more profitable ICE business with each 4 Series (or 3 Series) sale the i4 costs them.

Therefore, while the i4 is still over a year away, it isn't clear how low BMW will be able to get with the MSRP. Perhaps they do not need a $35k i4 60 to compete with Tesla. But they probably have to do better than a $45k i4 60, and that might mean putting themselves in a risky place.
BMW will have a serious issue offering anything close for the price of the Model 3 base, all the way up to the Model 3 Performance.

They have battery supply restraints as well as a limited charge network to help build out.
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      03-26-2019, 01:19 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goj View Post
With every update they get better but the software was half baked on release. No getting around that fact.

BMW won't have that level of tolerance that seems to have come from Tesla's "first mover" advantage. So they should take their time and get it right
I think the reason you think it's half baked is because of the different software development approach these two companies have.

I feel like BMW and other legacy manufactures treat the infotainment system on their cars as "firmware", often running on "underpowered" hardware. they want to get everything right on the first go. that's why their systems seems more polished and don't need frequent updates. but the major downside is they lack performance and advance features.

Tesla is treating their system as an OS, OS needs to be constantly updated to make it perform better. and i think this is the way it's going to go. more features, "half baked", constant OTA will be the norm for infotainment systems very soon.
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      03-26-2019, 01:25 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by ///M TOWN. View Post

BMW is dragging their feet, is in no hurry, and is truly paying a huge price accordingly.
are they though? im pretty sure they are killing it in the SUV game right now. ya know.. the things america's cant get enough of. Thats the bread and butter right now. BMW will "drag" their feet but get it right (hopefully)

Im all for something like the size of the 4er gran coupe with the range of an ICE (350+) and AWD.
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      03-26-2019, 01:27 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by ///M TOWN. View Post
BMW will have a serious issue offering anything close for the price of the Model 3 base, all the way up to the Model 3 Performance.
Right, but ynguldyn's point is that the Model 3 Performance is not where the meat of the market is. Yes, having a high performance EV would be great too, but on the list of Tesla product specifications keeping BMW engineers, designers, and execs up at night at this juncture, that one (the Model 3 Performance acceleration figure) is probably somewhat near the bottom.
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      03-26-2019, 01:28 PM   #57
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looking at the specs of the i4 i feel BMW should be very aggressive in its pricing. They should match the price of the model 3 RWD LR and AWD LR as close as possible even if it means operating with a thin or near zero margin.

if they do this they will be the leader in BEVs among legacy brands, first to market with a compelling, no compromise alternative to the model 3.
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      03-26-2019, 01:37 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by ecaedus View Post
if they do this they will be the leader in BEVs among legacy brands, first to market with a compelling, no compromise alternative to the model 3.
Well sure, certainly, if they can manage to remain solvent in the process:

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1595554

If it were such a simple solution, everybody would be doing it, or would have done it already.

BMW is at an even bigger disadvantage due to their small size. This is why you see them moving quickly to partner. This is not a drill, folks.
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      03-26-2019, 01:41 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by wdeerfield View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M TOWN. View Post

BMW is dragging their feet, is in no hurry, and is truly paying a huge price accordingly.
are they though? im pretty sure they are killing it in the SUV game right now. ya know.. the things america's cant get enough of. Thats the bread and butter right now. BMW will "drag" their feet but get it right (hopefully)

Im all for something like the size of the 4er gran coupe with the range of an ICE (350+) and AWD.
If they don't have a Model Y Competitor stat, they're going to be screwed.

Disruption is as clear as day.
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      03-26-2019, 02:00 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by ///M TOWN. View Post
If they don't have a Model Y Competitor stat, they're going to be screwed.

Disruption is as clear as day.
They have the iX3 coming, and that's going to have to do for the time being. If they can gain some type of foothold with that product, it will put them in a serviceable position and, hopefully, they'll be able to build momentum.

Just as with the i4 though, how much room they have to play with MSRP in order to build that momentum depending on market response is going to be a key factor. It could be a bumpy ride.
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      03-26-2019, 02:03 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by ecaedus View Post
looking at the specs of the i4 i feel BMW should be very aggressive in its pricing. They should match the price of the model 3 RWD LR and AWD LR as close as possible even if it means operating with a thin or near zero margin.
For a few months, BMW will have the $7500 advantage in federal tax credits, which will definitely affect the competition. But even later, they will be able to maintain a price premium over Tesla due to the higher quality overall build and specifically interiors. Tesla interiors are functional but lack the proverbial je ne sais quoi that BMW has plenty. That should be worth something. Personally, if I were in the market for an EV, I would pick BMW as long as its comparable vehicle is $5K-$7K over Tesla's price. But if it ends up being even more expensive then Tesla wins. This is based on my personal experience of owning a bunch of BMWs and a Model 3.
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Well sure, certainly, if they can manage to remain solvent in the process:

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1595554
For a second, before I clicked the link, I was totally sure that it would be about Tesla financials, not BMW.

Which does drive home the point: they're all fighting for the EV market tooth and nail, and the stakes are very high.
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      03-26-2019, 02:11 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
They have the iX3 coming, and that's going to have to do for the time being. If they can gain some type of foothold with that product, it will put them in a serviceable position and, hopefully, they'll be able to build momentum.

Just as with the i4 though, how much room they have to play with MSRP in order to build that momentum depending on market response is going to be a key factor. It could be a bumpy ride.
Interesting times ahead for sure.

The iX3 is going to be a great step forward for BMW.

Meanwhile... Mercedes just announced, all AMG Cars moving forward will be plug-ins...

https://insideevs.com/mercedes-amg-plug-in-hybrid/
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      03-26-2019, 02:34 PM   #63
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If the stats are true, TAKE MY MONEY!!!
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      03-26-2019, 02:44 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by TheMidnightNarwhal View Post
Well that's the problem.

No exhaust or no shifting. No fun as a fun car. Ok for a commuter.
Perhaps from stop sign to stop sign drivability you are correct, but a commute trip where you have a mix of different roads, a car, electric car as any other, allows to experience more than just the stick and sound. You get to experience handling, steering, and of course the speed and power of the car. I think electric cars can be good and fun, if they build to deliver that. Sort of what I learned from my i8 test drive.
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      03-26-2019, 02:46 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by CP911 View Post
Whenever he'd take us out for lunch in it, he would hit the accelerator pedal and it would push my stomach back for a couple of seconds, but after it was over, I would thinking to myself, "Okay.. what was the point of that? Just risking our lives for nothing." And I do mean nothing... no sound, no emotion, no anything. Just the faint whining sound of the motors and that was it.
I've had my Model S for 3 years and have a bit more experience than your lunch breaks lol
Apart from the rubbish interior the S is actually a fun car to drive. Still, I prefer my i3 over the S.

No sound = no noise
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      03-26-2019, 05:24 PM   #66
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Videos make these vehicles look fun but I doubt they will be much
RWD EVs are great fun due to the instantaneous torque and low center of gravity, what performance EV have you been driving.
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