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      09-17-2018, 10:51 AM   #1
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F90 Competition vs F10 Competition with downpipes

F90 Competition vs F10 Competition with catless downpipes the F10 looks almost identical in power from a roll

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=wG_x1g8SNfI
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      09-17-2018, 11:12 AM   #2
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It would be safe to assume the F10 was tuned too right? Its not mentioned but catless without a tune would not yield such good results for the F10.
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      09-17-2018, 04:54 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M5Dan View Post
F90 Competition vs F10 Competition with catless downpipes the F10 looks almost identical in power from a roll

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=wG_x1g8SNfI
Even if that is the case - which probably the F10 had a tune also, whats your point ?
The F10 would get crushed from a red light to infinity.
So what is the point of this post again ?

Uh i know sticky said its a great bargain buy.

I'll re - edit this in a different way
so what would an F90 with downpipes and tune do ?
Its still good to have the comparison though I get that. (similar engines), thanks for that !

Last edited by marcvtec; 09-17-2018 at 05:16 PM..
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      09-17-2018, 07:34 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcvtec View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by M5Dan View Post
F90 Competition vs F10 Competition with catless downpipes the F10 looks almost identical in power from a roll

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...;v=wG_x1g8SNfI
Even if that is the case - which probably the F10 had a tune also, whats your point ?
The F10 would get crushed from a red light to infinity.
So what is the point of this post again ?

Uh i know sticky said its a great bargain buy.

I'll re - edit this in a different way
so what would an F90 with downpipes and tune do ?
Its still good to have the comparison though I get that. (similar engines), thanks for that !
The point was to see another F10 M5 vs F90 I thought that F10 wasn't tuned bc there are plenty of people who throw downpipes on without a tune especially for the new exhaust tone and responsiveness. I've only seen the race between a Bootmod3 F10 vs F90 and the F90 walks it here
so I thought this new race was interesting
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      09-18-2018, 02:53 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcvtec View Post
Even if that is the case - which probably the F10 had a tune also, whats your point ?
The F10 would get crushed from a red light to infinity.
So what is the point of this post again ?

Uh i know sticky said its a great bargain buy.

I'll re - edit this in a different way
so what would an F90 with downpipes and tune do ?
Its still good to have the comparison though I get that. (similar engines), thanks for that !
Based on European magazine test figures, after 200km/h the F10 is pretty much on par with the F90, which means in a roll, the F10 could run the F90 close.

I don't know if this particular test the F10 has a tune or not (that's why I asked in another post but seems like the OP doesn't know either), but I still would like to see a stock vs stock in roll test.

No need for red light test because the F90 would crush any F10, tune or not.
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      09-18-2018, 03:46 PM   #6
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I just saw DetroitLaw sell his F10 M5. Not sure why he never took the opportunity to race both his F10 M5 and his F90 M5 while he still owned both at the same time.

Catless downpipes do add a little power even without tune, right around 30whp. So this video seems on par. I'm not sure why people think the F90 is secretly making 700 crank hp just because it has MxDrive now. Lol!
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      09-18-2018, 04:06 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPiM5 View Post
I just saw DetroitLaw sell his F10 M5. Not sure why he never took the opportunity to race both his F10 M5 and his F90 M5 while he still owned both at the same time.

Catless downpipes do add a little power even without tune, right around 30whp. So this video seems on par. I'm not sure why people think the F90 is secretly making 700 crank hp just because it has MxDrive now. Lol!
vtknight

Find me a stock F10 doing 127.xx and 10.9 in 3k d/a --- dont hate cause you dont like the car. Remember Ive had both and there is no comparo stock vs stock. Sorry but your love for a DCT doesnt make the ZF a terrible or even an ok transmission. Again I have had ZF's in aggressive high hp cars (not just a 550i) with tunes and its amazing for mods and shifting speeds.



Research dynos on the F90--- low 600's which is about 700 crank hp with the ZF dt loss... rolls eyes right back at ya.
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      09-18-2018, 04:43 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic55 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPiM5 View Post
I just saw DetroitLaw sell his F10 M5. Not sure why he never took the opportunity to race both his F10 M5 and his F90 M5 while he still owned both at the same time.

Catless downpipes do add a little power even without tune, right around 30whp. So this video seems on par. I'm not sure why people think the F90 is secretly making 700 crank hp just because it has MxDrive now. Lol!
vtknight

Find me a stock F10 doing 127.xx and 10.9 in 3k d/a --- dont hate cause you dont like the car. Remember Ive had both and there is no comparo stock vs stock. Sorry but your love for a DCT doesnt make the ZF a terrible or even an ok transmission. Again I have had ZF's in aggressive high hp cars (not just a 550i) with tunes and its amazing for mods and shifting speeds.



Research dynos on the F90--- low 600's which is about 700 crank hp with the ZF dt loss... rolls eyes right back at ya.
Brother, I wasn't saying anything bad about platform, but instead just referencing the tendency for some (not all) new owners to have a placebo experience when talking about certain aspects of a new car. It happens every generation. When the next 2022 G82 M4 gets its first owner, the cycle will repeat itself. Lol! People put the F10 M5 on dyno's 6 years ago and claimed the same thing as people are now, stating the motor is severely underrated. They claimed the same thing, 700hp. Which is silly. This has nothing to do with the ZF8, it's great transmission or even the MxDrive, both cars are fast, both weigh about the same, and one makes 25hp more than the other. The F90 should pull ahead in a rolling race based on the math. I just find it funny when people expect certain results based on their opinions. Also, VTKnight where's the 60-130 data? Just curious. That would be a good camparo to F10 data.

Too bad DetriotLaw didn't get any good video. Not trying to spread any bad vibes. I like the F90 and the F10 both, I'm always a car enthusiast first, unless there's a Toyota Prius involved. Lol!
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      09-18-2018, 07:41 PM   #9
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I am sorry. I love the F90 to my dying days, and I am in the process of buying one (possibly the worse financial decision of all my life), but in rolling race scenario it is just as quick as a F10 with basic mods. This is not the first video I have seen that emulates this scenario. An F10 doesn't need a tune to go as fast as an F90. I bet that if the F10 did not have downpipes it wouldn't have kept it up as well as it did, but the truth is that the F10 is a bloody weapon. Now that the F90 has hit the roads here in Brazil, some are coming to performance events here. And they are trapping in the standing 2mile events around 1 or 1.5mph more than an F10 M5 (both stock non CP). So I don't see the F90's vast superiority in high speeds. It is a tiny wee bit quicker and that is it.

By the way the W213 E63 S trapped a higher top speed than both the F90 and F10.

I think the F90 is stupidly quick but the F10 is insanely fast once it picks up traction, the trouble is that it is more insulated and you don't feel the speed. My F06 GC feels retardedly fast from 100-250, in fact I have a mate with a 991.2 Turbo S, and I kept up with him easily from 100-250. The F10 platform was severely underrated.
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      09-18-2018, 07:44 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M5Dan View Post
The point was to see another F10 M5 vs F90 I thought that F10 wasn't tuned bc there are plenty of people who throw downpipes on without a tune especially for the new exhaust tone and responsiveness. I've only seen the race between a Bootmod3 F10 vs F90 and the F90 walks it here
so I thought this new race was interesting
I am not hating on who posted the video nor doubting, but this video is weird. This tuned M5 is picking up speed about as quickly as my stock F06 GC. That makes no sense at all. I have said that in another thread,

By the way the russian lunatics tested 100-200 for F10 M5 CP + Downpipes, F90 M5 CP, F90 M5, W213 E63 S

100-200 was 7.3, 7.0, 7.2, 7.5
200-250 was 6.6, 6.6, 6.9, 7.1

Something among those lines. Pretty interesting results.
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      09-19-2018, 12:09 AM   #11
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I think above 200km/h the F10 is as fast as the F90, based on the test figures from European magazines that I have seen.

Without attaching lots of pictures of the test figures and cluttering the post, I will just write it.

Auto Bild has done two test on the F90 M5, one super test and one comparison test. 0-200km/h 10.5, 0-300km/h 34.4, and the other one 0-200km/h 10.6, 0-300km/h 33.0.

Unfortunately I can't find a test on the F10 M5 CP (to 300km/h), but I did find one for the Jahre 0-200km/h 11.8, 0-280km/h 26.4. And a AMS test on F90 M5 0-200km/h 11.1, 0-280km/h 27.6.

And finally on Sport Auto's supertest, SA doesn't do 0-300km/h acceleration test but on the ring, I noticed on the famous Dottinger Hohe straight, the F10 M5 CP trapped at 295km/h while the F90 M5 trapped 290km/h.

Granted, all the above tests are done on different days, but it would seem after 200km/h, the F10 platform is not losing anymore ground to the F90.

But no one really does rolling from 200 to 300km/h though, I guess it's kind of a moot point lol.
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      09-19-2018, 10:01 AM   #12
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I can only say having driven both the F10 and owning the F90 Competition - that the F10 is no where near the F90 in terms of performance. Trap speeds already tell us that the mid-top end of the F90 is superior - I did a 127.54 MPH trap in 39 celcius heat (before humidity). I am going back to the track this Sunday - weather pending - that is set to be about 2000ish DA - maybe slightly better - (it was 3000+ with my last outing for comparison) - on a regular test and tune day so prep will be crap - but I believe I will trap at least 128 if not 129 MPH this time out if the weather is accurate. That is a full ~5 MPH above the higher average F10 M5 CP. As to this thread - from my own experience - not tuning on exhaust only is definitely possible - but with down pipes - I would be very surprised a tune is not needed. Additional flow from the exhaust side of the turbos will cause them to spin faster and would mess up the stock tune likely leaning out the car. From those who mod these cars - the money is on at least a light tune to ensure air/fuel is correct. So I highly doubt the car is on a stock tune. As to the DCT versus ZF - I have both types of cars and the ZF is a dream. I would say - feels - just as quick, but with a nice drive. The difference is not detrimental.

I am not trying to poo poo the F10 - but the new AWD platform makes the 1/4 a full second quicker than the F10 when comparing magazine tests (11.9 to 10.9) - and the additional power is evident in the mid-top end. Cars are supposed to evolve with every iteration - and the F10 to F90 is no exception.
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      09-19-2018, 10:47 AM   #13
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Depends on which version of the F10 alot of people had, for a short production run from November 2013 - July 2014 ZCP cars were outputting bit more than the 575 figure that was indicated which i've had confirmed to me by a certain someone high up. Just as some of the guys that did a deep dive into the stock tunes between early CP cars, later CP cars and the 600hp tune from the Jahare edition and the M6 variants figured out for themselves. The most powerful version of the F10/F13/F12/F06 were the ZCP cars produced from 11/13 to 7/14. This is what I have and it's possible this was what was video'd in the original post. Car is strong as hell.
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      09-19-2018, 01:40 PM   #14
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Depends on which version of the F10 alot of people had, for a short production run from November 2013 - July 2014 ZCP cars were outputting bit more than the 575 figure that was indicated which i've had confirmed to me by a certain someone high up. Just as some of the guys that did a deep dive into the stock tunes between early CP cars, later CP cars and the 600hp tune from the Jahare edition and the M6 variants figured out for themselves. The most powerful version of the F10/F13/F12/F06 were the ZCP cars produced from 11/13 to 7/14. This is what I have and it's possible this was what was video'd in the original post. Car is strong as hell.
My friends car was a 2014. Taking it to the track it ran a high high 11 - (11.87) at 122.7 MPH. Forget the ET for a moment as that is traction - but the MPH was in the same region of my earlier gen E63S - where I ran 11.7 at 124.3 MPH. Those runs were in the fall. Neither car is anywhere near close to ~128 MPH in 39C heat. To put it into perspective - at my track - my GTR's first modding experience was a Switzer P600 bolt on and tune package and I was pulling similar MPH and ET as the M5 CP.

I am in no way saying the F10 M5 is slow. Only that it is not as quick fast as the F90 M5 - and exhaust and DP's without a tune would not be enough (and likely harmful to the F10 without a tune).
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      09-19-2018, 03:24 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtknight View Post
I can only say having driven both the F10 and owning the F90 Competition - that the F10 is no where near the F90 in terms of performance. Trap speeds already tell us that the mid-top end of the F90 is superior - I did a 127.54 MPH trap in 39 celcius heat (before humidity). I am going back to the track this Sunday - weather pending - that is set to be about 2000ish DA - maybe slightly better - (it was 3000+ with my last outing for comparison) - on a regular test and tune day so prep will be crap - but I believe I will trap at least 128 if not 129 MPH this time out if the weather is accurate. That is a full ~5 MPH above the higher average F10 M5 CP. As to this thread - from my own experience - not tuning on exhaust only is definitely possible - but with down pipes - I would be very surprised a tune is not needed. Additional flow from the exhaust side of the turbos will cause them to spin faster and would mess up the stock tune likely leaning out the car. From those who mod these cars - the money is on at least a light tune to ensure air/fuel is correct. So I highly doubt the car is on a stock tune. As to the DCT versus ZF - I have both types of cars and the ZF is a dream. I would say - feels - just as quick, but with a nice drive. The difference is not detrimental.

I am not trying to poo poo the F10 - but the new AWD platform makes the 1/4 a full second quicker than the F10 when comparing magazine tests (11.9 to 10.9) - and the additional power is evident in the mid-top end. Cars are supposed to evolve with every iteration - and the F10 to F90 is no exception.
Trap speed for 1/4 mile is quite a troubled comparison for the F10 as it has severe traction issues up to 60 mph. But a rolling race is a totally different scenario. A rolling race starting at 60-70 mph, is going to be pretty close. Both cars have similar weight, similar aerodynamics, the F10 has less transmission losses, similar wheelhorse power (when downpiped). I don't know, it is a tough comparison. I can totally see why an F10 with downpipes can keep up with an F90
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      09-19-2018, 04:42 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlosM4 View Post
Trap speed for 1/4 mile is quite a troubled comparison for the F10 as it has severe traction issues up to 60 mph. But a rolling race is a totally different scenario. A rolling race starting at 60-70 mph, is going to be pretty close. Both cars have similar weight, similar aerodynamics, the F10 has less transmission losses, similar wheelhorse power (when downpiped). I don't know, it is a tough comparison. I can totally see why an F10 with downpipes can keep up with an F90
First, I made an error. My buddies F10 M5 CP ran a 122.3 MPH best trap speed - and my E63S was 123.9 MPH...shown here:


I ran 123.46 and as low as 122.1 MPH as per the videos on my above YT channel. The F10 M5 CP ran low to mid 121's on average. Again - weather pending - I will be at the same track with better weather (25-27C) this weekend to see what the F90 M5 CP does. I will post the results on Bimmerpost. If I also get 127.5 MPH this weekend, I will say that 5+ MPH is a goodly amount and just exhaust and DP will likely not be enough to come with a car in a mid-top end roll. If I am above 128 MPH - into 129 - 7+ MPH definitely would need a full tune plus exhaust and DP's to come to the type of "tie" the video shows. That is a lot of MPH at that level.

To your point about traction, what is interesting about drags is that spinning actually can cause an increase in trap speed more times than not. That said - I am not JUST stating 1/4 mile trap speeds will tell you if a person will win a mid-top end roll race every time - just that it is an indicator. We didn't 1/2 mile his car. That said, as I said above, my buddy has raced his car in hotter temps as I have and barely run 121-122+ MPH. I will see if we can find a safe venue for a roll - at the 1/4 track - just for fun to see what the outcome is. If we are within 1-2 cars over 130 MPH - I would say that exhaust and DP may be enough to bring the cars close to 1 car to half car - without a tune. For sure with a tune. But if we are 2-3+ cars difference - as I project - I would say for sure exhaust and DP would not be enough and with a solid tune (depending on the tune level) - to get results as per the video.

Drivetrain loss with two quick shifting auto's isn't likely going to be perceptible. WHP - and I will admit - I am not well versed on non-tune DP/Exhaust mods to an F10 - but F90 M5's are averaging 600 WHP stock.
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      09-19-2018, 06:19 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtknight View Post
First, I made an error. My buddies F10 M5 CP ran a 122.3 MPH best trap speed - and my E63S was 123.9 MPH...shown here:


I ran 123.46 and as low as 122.1 MPH as per the videos on my above YT channel. The F10 M5 CP ran low to mid 121's on average. Again - weather pending - I will be at the same track with better weather (25-27C) this weekend to see what the F90 M5 CP does. I will post the results on Bimmerpost. If I also get 127.5 MPH this weekend, I will say that 5+ MPH is a goodly amount and just exhaust and DP will likely not be enough to come with a car in a mid-top end roll. If I am above 128 MPH - into 129 - 7+ MPH definitely would need a full tune plus exhaust and DP's to come to the type of "tie" the video shows. That is a lot of MPH at that level.

To your point about traction, what is interesting about drags is that spinning actually can cause an increase in trap speed more times than not. That said - I am not JUST stating 1/4 mile trap speeds will tell you if a person will win a mid-top end roll race every time - just that it is an indicator. We didn't 1/2 mile his car. That said, as I said above, my buddy has raced his car in hotter temps as I have and barely run 121-122+ MPH. I will see if we can find a safe venue for a roll - at the 1/4 track - just for fun to see what the outcome is. If we are within 1-2 cars over 130 MPH - I would say that exhaust and DP may be enough to bring the cars close to 1 car to half car - without a tune. For sure with a tune. But if we are 2-3+ cars difference - as I project - I would say for sure exhaust and DP would not be enough and with a solid tune (depending on the tune level) - to get results as per the video.

Drivetrain loss with two quick shifting auto's isn't likely going to be perceptible. WHP - and I will admit - I am not well versed on non-tune DP/Exhaust mods to an F10 - but F90 M5's are averaging 600 WHP stock.
It will be interesting. Hope to see the test some time soon. I really genuinely believe the F10 can keep up. Not saying I prefer it to the F90 though, the F90 is vastly superior in pretty much all aspects, but the F10, F12 and F06 platforms were roll race monsters. I have run my M6 CP with a mate's 991.2 Turbo S and it was much much closer than we expected (my car is fully stock) (he beat me by about 2 car lengths). That I said I want to see this comparo done.
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      09-19-2018, 08:03 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlosM4 View Post
It will be interesting. Hope to see the test some time soon. I really genuinely believe the F10 can keep up. Not saying I prefer it to the F90 though, the F90 is vastly superior in pretty much all aspects, but the F10, F12 and F06 platforms were roll race monsters. I have run my M6 CP with a mate's 991.2 Turbo S and it was much much closer than we expected (my car is fully stock) (he beat me by about 2 car lengths). That I said I want to see this comparo done.
Were you pure stock vs the 991.2 ?
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      09-19-2018, 08:52 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlosM4 View Post
It will be interesting. Hope to see the test some time soon. I really genuinely believe the F10 can keep up. Not saying I prefer it to the F90 though, the F90 is vastly superior in pretty much all aspects, but the F10, F12 and F06 platforms were roll race monsters. I have run my M6 CP with a mate's 991.2 Turbo S and it was much much closer than we expected (my car is fully stock) (he beat me by about 2 car lengths). That I said I want to see this comparo done.
This makes sense to me. The M6 CP's were quicker and had much faster than the M5 and M5 CP. I've seen them trap 125+ MPH. And the 991.2 - in my local DA traps high 127-128ish MPH - literally identical to the trap I laid down same day. That amount of difference between the M6 CP and Turbo is about 2ish cars. Regular F10 M5 would be 4-5 cars - and F10 M5 CP maybe 3+.
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      09-19-2018, 11:24 PM   #20
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Guys, I want to see a roll race from 130mph to 190mph hahaha.

I need to find someone in Taiwan with F90.
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      09-20-2018, 12:46 AM   #21
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Quote:
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Guys, I want to see a roll race from 130mph to 190mph hahaha.

I need to find someone in Taiwan with F90.
I think this by itself is the issue. Almost no one is going to see these races.

My F90 is not unlocked top speed wise (so 155?). It's almost irrelevant performance. Up until the 1/4 - the F90 is a full second quicker than the F10 - yes it's AWD plus some extra power - but it is what it is. MPH is up about 5-7 MPH - which is significant. There really is no comparison as it should be for the new iteration of the M5. The next gen will be quicker and faster than the F90 too.
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      09-20-2018, 02:04 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtknight View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatcat View Post
Guys, I want to see a roll race from 130mph to 190mph hahaha.

I need to find someone in Taiwan with F90.
I think this by itself is the issue. Almost no one is going to see these races.

My F90 is not unlocked top speed wise (so 155?). It's almost irrelevant performance. Up until the 1/4 - the F90 is a full second quicker than the F10 - yes it's AWD plus some extra power - but it is what it is. MPH is up about 5-7 MPH - which is significant. There really is no comparison as it should be for the new iteration of the M5. The next gen will be quicker and faster than the F90 too.
Oh yeah, forgot the US cars are mostly limited, you right, it really is a moot point.
Appreciate 0
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