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      07-20-2018, 06:00 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Vic55 View Post
Carlos will chime in but I think he did mention that he felt AMG fixed the delay in the MCT paddle shifting response.

From my own perspective, Ive had 5 MCT's prior to this one and felt the paddle response to shift was pretty sad. But with the 9 speed MCT in the E63S- they fixed the electronics and the shifting is on point as it should be.
Just the downshifts are pretty harsh and jerky as he mentioned in his review on the E63s.

The only area where I will disagree with Carlos having owned both is the steering. To me the steering in the M5 is vastly superior to the E63s. The E63 has weight all the time but no feel vs the M5 which has less weight but more feel especially on turn in which is much better and faster on the M5 then the E63 which really feels nose heavy compared to the M5.
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      07-20-2018, 06:03 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Vic55 View Post
Carlos will chime in but I think he did mention that he felt AMG fixed the delay in the MCT paddle shifting response.

From my own perspective, Ive had 5 MCT's prior to this one and felt the paddle response to shift was pretty sad. But with the 9 speed MCT in the E63S- they fixed the electronics and the shifting is on point as it should be.
Thanks Vic. I concur 100000% with what you said.

I had the 7 Speed Speedtronic MCT in my past AMGs. That transmission was horrendous. The electronics were too slow, and the transmission had horrible lag, although the paddles felt quite nice and the shift itself was quick. Commands were slow to respond.

The 9G-Tronic and its MCT Speedshift with 9 Gears are very, very quick. They match the ZF8 in terms of the speed. Commands for manual shifts are quite quick, and the gear changes themselves are rapid enough. It doesn't bog down or detract from the driving experience in anyway, unlike in the past.
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      07-20-2018, 06:07 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quickburn7 View Post
Just the downshifts are pretty harsh and jerky as he mentioned in his review on the E63s.

The only area where I will disagree with Carlos having owned both is the steering. To me the steering in the M5 is vastly superior to the E63s. The E63 has weight all the time but no feel vs the M5 which has less weight but more feel especially on turn in which is much better and faster on the M5 then the E63 which really feels nose heavy compared to the M5.
Steering feel is quite subjective, but other than that, you have much more experience than me, as you owned both cars. I just got to drive them extensively from a period. The steering in the M5 feels weird, it feels rubbery. Other than that, the E63's steering feels meatier.

The jerky transmission in the E63 S is quite erratic, because sometimes when coming to a light or stopping, the transmission jerks in the downshifts, sometimes it doesn't. Very weird.
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      07-20-2018, 07:58 PM   #26
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Great review Carlos, thank you!

I've got the lightest and fastest F chassis M5/M6 with the 600ps Comp Pack engine in a Coupe and I've driven the F90 M5 a couple of times now and I'm not convinced it is an upgrade with the same S63tu engine and the 8 speed auto, interesting to hear you have similar thoughts.

Is there any chance you could talk a bit more about your experience with the 6.2 and 5.5TT AMG engines compared to the newer engines? I drove an E63 5.5TT and it felt like a torque monster but it didn't seem to enjoy going above 5k rpm at all when compared to my w204 C63 or the S63tu engine. The old 6.3 is of course a very special engine but doesn't make as much power or torque as the new turbo engines.

I think the 600ps spec S63tu2 is fantastic and it was interesting to read about your impressions of throttle response. Shame you don't get Comp Pack cars over there, I would really like to hear your thoughts on the F90 Comp Pack. You're welcome to drive my car if you're ever in NZ though We put the steering wheel on the other side though.
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      07-20-2018, 08:04 PM   #27
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To some extend, the experience differs based on driving environments and plain speed.
We travel to Germany every year and rent more or less the same cars during our stay as we drive here in the US.
The experience how these cars perform is dramatically different at speed in Germany vs. our mostly spirited city driving in the US. Even the short quick runs are nothing like it.
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      07-20-2018, 08:37 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlosM4 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quickburn7 View Post
Just the downshifts are pretty harsh and jerky as he mentioned in his review on the E63s.

The only area where I will disagree with Carlos having owned both is the steering. To me the steering in the M5 is vastly superior to the E63s. The E63 has weight all the time but no feel vs the M5 which has less weight but more feel especially on turn in which is much better and faster on the M5 then the E63 which really feels nose heavy compared to the M5.
Steering feel is quite subjective, but other than that, you have much more experience than me, as you owned both cars. I just got to drive them extensively from a period. The steering in the M5 feels weird, it feels rubbery. Other than that, the E63's steering feels meatier.

The jerky transmission in the E63 S is quite erratic, because sometimes when coming to a light or stopping, the transmission jerks in the downshifts, sometimes it doesn't. Very weird.
Yeah I agree for some reason the 3-2-1 downshift in the E63 is either smooth or brutal nothing in the middle. I do miss the Rev matching blips on downshifts from the E63.

One other very juvenile thing I miss from the E63 tranny is that in Drive you could rev the engine just a bit before the gear would engage allowing you blip the throttle and listen to that engine in traffic for extra entertainment.
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      07-20-2018, 08:43 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quickburn7 View Post
Yeah I agree for some reason the 3-2-1 downshift in the E63 is either smooth or brutal nothing in the middle. I do miss the Rev matching blips on downshifts from the E63.

One other very juvenile thing I miss from the E63 tranny is that in Drive you could rev the engine just a bit before the gear would engage allowing you blip the throttle and listen to that engine in traffic for extra entertainment.
The exhaust is addictive. God it is good. You are able to forgive any shortcoming just because of the exhaust .

The rev matching blips are pretty cool too, I concur. AMG's have always mastered downshifts (even when the tranny was slow as hell like in the 7G Tronic).

By the way, what are your thoughts on the M5 so far ? You have such an amazing collection, that your insight on the F90 is far more interesting than anyone's here (especially mine). I really believe that the M5 F90 is right now the closest thing to a 911 Turbo S. A little bit blunt, but incredibly capable and effective.
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      07-20-2018, 08:50 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by brad850csi View Post
Great review Carlos, thank you!

I've got the lightest and fastest F chassis M5/M6 with the 600ps Comp Pack engine in a Coupe and I've driven the F90 M5 a couple of times now and I'm not convinced it is an upgrade with the same S63tu engine and the 8 speed auto, interesting to hear you have similar thoughts.

Is there any chance you could talk a bit more about your experience with the 6.2 and 5.5TT AMG engines compared to the newer engines? I drove an E63 5.5TT and it felt like a torque monster but it didn't seem to enjoy going above 5k rpm at all when compared to my w204 C63 or the S63tu engine. The old 6.3 is of course a very special engine but doesn't make as much power or torque as the new turbo engines.

I think the 600ps spec S63tu2 is fantastic and it was interesting to read about your impressions of throttle response. Shame you don't get Comp Pack cars over there, I would really like to hear your thoughts on the F90 Comp Pack. You're welcome to drive my car if you're ever in NZ though We put the steering wheel on the other side though.
Nice mate. Thanks for the warm welcome.
The 5.5TT is a bit of an old nail. It is really a monster engine, but it is too laggy when compared to newer engines (turbo lag) and like you said it is not rev hungry. It really shines from 2.5k to 5.5k rpm, then it begins to slowly die down. The 6.2 V8 is a classic though. It revs beautifully, and it is a torque monster. It has a different personality to the 5.5TT where you get a sudden torque urge from 2.5-3k rpm, while the 6.2 V8 is very linear, one of the most linear engines out there. I think the S63Tu and the M177 are more in tune with the linear side of things. The 5.5TT was old tech back then, and it is very old tech now.


Talking about the M6 GC vs M5 F90. I think the M5 is an upgrade but from an usability perspective. From a sporting drive perspective, I think it is pretty similar, in fact I consider the M6 more exciting and inciting. It is just a lot more dangerous. The F90 really shines in the electronic gyzmos and AWD usability.

Last edited by CarlosM4; 07-20-2018 at 08:56 PM..
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      07-20-2018, 08:52 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfman64 View Post
To some extend, the experience differs based on driving environments and plain speed.
We travel to Germany every year and rent more or less the same cars during our stay as we drive here in the US.
The experience how these cars perform is dramatically different at speed in Germany vs. our mostly spirited city driving in the US. Even the short quick runs are nothing like it.
In Brazil we have the good old Bandeirantes in state of São Paulo (basically an Autobahn but with speed limit of 75 mph), and we have twisties like the normal canyon roads up there for you guys. Brazilians are terrible drivers though, so the experience of going over 250 km/h can be difficult, thanks to left lane hoggers.
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      07-20-2018, 08:54 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by vtknight View Post
Thank-you for the review Carlos - I am surprised about your liking the MCT - something I hated in my E63S - I literally could not shift manually in that car as it wouldn't shift when you pressed the paddle without a significant delay. I have the same ZF auto in my M550ix that my M5 will get - and I love that transmission (as it's quick enough but still smooth - but it also can manually shift well).

Just wanting to make sure there wasn't something I missed in your comments.

Thanks again!
By the way in answering Vic's comment I talked about my opinion here. Just forgot to add, the ZF8 in the M5 feels different to the ZF8 in other BMWs, the closest application to my eyes is in the RS6/RS7. It has far more aggressive programming especially in Sport Plus (but it is butter smooth, except some occasional hiccups in uphills).
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      07-20-2018, 11:52 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlosM4 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by brad850csi View Post
Great review Carlos, thank you!

I've got the lightest and fastest F chassis M5/M6 with the 600ps Comp Pack engine in a Coupe and I've driven the F90 M5 a couple of times now and I'm not convinced it is an upgrade with the same S63tu engine and the 8 speed auto, interesting to hear you have similar thoughts.

Is there any chance you could talk a bit more about your experience with the 6.2 and 5.5TT AMG engines compared to the newer engines? I drove an E63 5.5TT and it felt like a torque monster but it didn't seem to enjoy going above 5k rpm at all when compared to my w204 C63 or the S63tu engine. The old 6.3 is of course a very special engine but doesn't make as much power or torque as the new turbo engines.

I think the 600ps spec S63tu2 is fantastic and it was interesting to read about your impressions of throttle response. Shame you don't get Comp Pack cars over there, I would really like to hear your thoughts on the F90 Comp Pack. You're welcome to drive my car if you're ever in NZ though We put the steering wheel on the other side though.
Nice mate. Thanks for the warm welcome.
The 5.5TT is a bit of an old nail. It is really a monster engine, but it is too laggy when compared to newer engines (turbo lag) and like you said it is not rev hungry. It really shines from 2.5k to 5.5k rpm, then it begins to slowly die down. The 6.2 V8 is a classic though. It revs beautifully, and it is a torque monster. It has a different personality to the 5.5TT where you get a sudden torque urge from 2.5-3k rpm, while the 6.2 V8 is very linear, one of the most linear engines out there. I think the S63Tu and the M177 are more in tune with the linear side of things. The 5.5TT was old tech back then, and it is very old tech now.


Talking about the M6 GC vs M5 F90. I think the M5 is an upgrade but from an usability perspective. From a sporting drive perspective, I think it is pretty similar, in fact I consider the M6 more exciting and inciting. It is just a lot more dangerous. The F90 really shines in the electronic gyzmos and AWD usability.
I concur, F90 is definitely more capable but probably no more fun to drive than the F10. Not going up grade mine especially M5 in my country is expensive.
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      07-21-2018, 12:17 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlosM4 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quickburn7 View Post
Yeah I agree for some reason the 3-2-1 downshift in the E63 is either smooth or brutal nothing in the middle. I do miss the Rev matching blips on downshifts from the E63.

One other very juvenile thing I miss from the E63 tranny is that in Drive you could rev the engine just a bit before the gear would engage allowing you blip the throttle and listen to that engine in traffic for extra entertainment.
The exhaust is addictive. God it is good. You are able to forgive any shortcoming just because of the exhaust .

The rev matching blips are pretty cool too, I concur. AMG's have always mastered downshifts (even when the tranny was slow as hell like in the 7G Tronic).

By the way, what are your thoughts on the M5 so far ? You have such an amazing collection, that your insight on the F90 is far more interesting than anyone's here (especially mine). I really believe that the M5 F90 is right now the closest thing to a 911 Turbo S. A little bit blunt, but incredibly capable and effective.
I'm loving the M5 so far. I use mine as a daily driver so the added comfort is very useful for me and it looks a lot more "common" than any other of my cars so easy to get to job sites and meetings unnoticed.

I have not driven the turbo S in a while. The steering to me is closer to my GTS 4 Porsche than anything else I have but you feel the power a lot more in the M5 even with added weight. The steering is light on the M5 with more road feel like the Porsche the the E63.

Most of my other cars are pure sports cars so it would be hard to compare but closest thing is the 812 SF in the way it's comfortable and easy to drive but can also feel like a full on sports car when pushed
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      07-21-2018, 01:49 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quickburn7 View Post
I'm loving the M5 so far. I use mine as a daily driver so the added comfort is very useful for me and it looks a lot more "common" than any other of my cars so easy to get to job sites and meetings unnoticed.

I have not driven the turbo S in a while. The steering to me is closer to my GTS 4 Porsche than anything else I have but you feel the power a lot more in the M5 even with added weight. The steering is light on the M5 with more road feel like the Porsche the the E63.

Most of my other cars are pure sports cars so it would be hard to compare but closest thing is the 812 SF in the way it's comfortable and easy to drive but can also feel like a full on sports car when pushed
It’s funny that over your way the M5 is less noticed. It’s the opposite here in the U.K. I’ve had far more unwanted attention driving the M5 v the E63 Estate. The M5 is somewhat of an iconic car in the U.K. and many ‘boy racers’ have M3’s so it gets a lot of attention whereas not many people take a glance at the E63!!!
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      07-23-2018, 07:02 AM   #36
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To finalize, after some time thinking about these cars, the conclusion is that the M5 is my favourite. I love it. It may lack a bit of character when not being driven at the limit, and it may be a little too capable, but my god what a car. You can haul family, the family dog, at triple digits, without breaking a sweat, in extreme comfort. It is wonderful, and I can not get it out of my head. I really really love the E63 S, but it is a bit too shouty, and look at me. Amazing car, but the M5 is just that little bit more capable and the nicer car.

Another thing is that the M5 F90 comes with a lot more standard kit here as well. I want one badly . A pity that I am too poor to afford paying almost 250k USD in a car including purchase taxes.

By the way for those wondering cars like the 918 Spyder are like 2 million USD MSRP here lol. An Aventador S is 1 million USD MSRP, and a Huracan Performante is 990k USD MSRP. Pretty sad reality we have here in Brazil. And to make things worse, although there are some amazing roads, to get to those roads, you have to go through these cars hell (potholes, road joints, and serious craters) to get there.
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      07-23-2018, 01:46 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlosM4 View Post
By the way in answering Vic's comment I talked about my opinion here. Just forgot to add, the ZF8 in the M5 feels different to the ZF8 in other BMWs, the closest application to my eyes is in the RS6/RS7. It has far more aggressive programming especially in Sport Plus (but it is butter smooth, except some occasional hiccups in uphills).
Thanks Carlos - makes sense. I had the earlier E63S - and hated that transmission.
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      08-08-2018, 09:41 PM   #38
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Got to drive the new F90 M5 today, the Brazilian presscar lol. What a car, but I have some disappointments when compared to my M6 F06.

It was a standard non CCB car. Drove side to side with the E 63 S owned by my friend (non CCB) and my M6 GC. Got say it is pretty epic but I don't think it is better than the E 63 S. It is different, but not better. Both are amazing.

Will post more of thoughts later. What a car though. Incredible road acceleration and highway performance.
Nice write up Carlos. I'm actually in the process of either getting the 2019 BMW M5 Competition or the 2018 AMG E63s.

Been doing a lot of research and still deciding between the two. Seems overall the M5 Comp is the better car but the AMG has such a nice interior and engine/exhaust sound.

Do you think the M5 Comp will solve some of the steering issues the base M5 has?

One thing that will definitely make me get the M5 Comp over the AMG E63s is the suspension in comfort mode. I remember the last time I test drove the AMG E63s in 2015 the suspension was WAY too hard in comfort mode. That alone turned me off to the car. Is the suspension still that bad even in comfort mode? I've heard pretty amazing reviews for the base M5 in how comfortable it was in comfort mode. I hear the M5 Comp is only slightly rougher than the base M5 so it should still be more comfortable than the E63s.
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      08-09-2018, 05:37 PM   #39
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I own an AMG C63s and its much more comfortable than the M3 Competition Pack I had previously so I'm amazed to read reports (from several sources now) that the E63s is a harder ride than the M5.

Seems like the E63s and M5 are switched around with regards ride comfort compared to the C63s vs M3 CP.
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      08-09-2018, 07:59 PM   #40
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I own an AMG C63s and its much more comfortable than the M3 Competition Pack I had previously so I'm amazed to read reports (from several sources now) that the E63s is a harder ride than the M5.

Seems like the E63s and M5 are switched around with regards ride comfort compared to the C63s vs M3 CP.
I owned a C63S Coupe, M4 ZCP, and now have an E63S... first off this is my ownership opinion but the C63S is harsh with its dialed up dampers and springs but its not as stiff as the Air Body Control in the E63S. The E63S is very very taut, flat and planted. But with the most slightest of road undulations and or imperfections you will feel it.

Now I am one that would rather give up some comfort for a more planted aggressive feel but my roads are also rather well paved where I live and drive. I drive my E in sport (1 light on) as i did with the C63S Coupe. As for the F82 M4 ZCP I had, it was still a bit more compliant in mid suspension settings than my C63S (again my opinion) as I felt the dampers and springs worked in unison with the chassis. My C63S was a bouncy car with heavier compression and rebound and it just didnt eat up the bumps as well.
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      08-10-2018, 01:35 AM   #41
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Been doing a lot of research and still deciding between the two. Seems overall the M5 Comp is the better car but the AMG has such a nice interior and engine/exhaust sound.
I would say the AMG has a flashier interior but to me it seems slightly gaudy and flashy. The overall effect of all of the current Mercedes interiors to me is that they look great at first but aren't all that solid or usable at all.
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      08-10-2018, 05:30 PM   #42
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I would say the AMG has a flashier interior but to me it seems slightly gaudy and flashy. The overall effect of all of the current Mercedes interiors to me is that they look great at first but aren't all that solid or usable at all.
Yep, just got back from test driving the 2018 AMG E63s and happy I ordered the M5 Comp. The AMG drives awesome and sounds great but definitely wasn't as comfortable as the M5 and honestly the E63s didn't look as good in person as I thought it would. It has a big ugly Mercedes badge on the front grill that doesn't look good in person. Also the interior was nice but didn't look as good in person as in videos or photos. It didn't have the $2800 carbon fiber interior though, so I'm sure that would look better.

Test driving both cars, just think the M5 is the better all-arounder. The only thing the AMG has on the M5 is just engine/exhaust sound and perhaps a little more of a sporty feel to the drive.
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      08-10-2018, 06:03 PM   #43
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Thanks for the review Carlos. Very helpful.
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      08-10-2018, 09:05 PM   #44
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The perfect car for me would be the shape of an RS6, the sound of an E63s and everything else M5. I had an E63s for a weekend before purchasing the M5 - I actually thought the interior and tech was far better in the M5. Apart from having less tech, it's quite laggy in the E63 which is very annoying.
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