[ResIpsaLoquitur]

Originally Posted by Pimpsy

FWIW- I have almost 30K mi on my ACG pads and no squeal.

Squeal would drive me bananas, I'd literally sell the car if it couldn't be fixed.

Thank you so much for the input! See why jumping into a solution is so hard?!?! So many different and widely varying experiences with the same products.

It's driven me nuts forever!

[bigmixx11]

Is the brake squeal problem only an issue with the M5 or does it happen across all the other M cars/suv's? We just got an X5 Msport for my wife so just wondering if we can expect this issue.

I read that Brembo sources the brakes for the true M cars. I've owned a Hellcat and a Mustang and the 6-piston Brembos on those cars don't make a sound. Not an M car but still...

[ResIpsaLoquitur]

Originally Posted by Pimpsy

I wonder what is the actual cause of the noise. Based on what I have read here, something changes after X miles and the noise starts. May it is the way the pads fit in the calipers change as the pad gets thinner. Maybe the brake pad material builds up on the rotors and somehow cause the noise. :

Seems like this was be a relatively easy fix by BMW Quality and Engineering.

I have always wondered this as well. Another forum member posted a video on my dead brake thread from BMW with two engineers explaining that that the squeal is normal, but they do not explain why. I'm sure it would be an easy fix for the company that has figured out a way to engineer every other part of the M5 to perfection. This tends to be where people suggest that it's "just that way" and "get used to it." Which drives me insane. I have/have had numerous performance cars that never had this problem.

I agree with you — if they wanted to fix this, they easily could. But for some reason that I still can't seem to understand, they don't

[ResIpsaLoquitur]

Originally Posted by bigmixx11

Is the brake squeal problem only an issue with the M5 or does it happen across all the other M cars/suv's? We just got an X5 Msport for my wife so just wondering if we can expect this issue.

I read that Brembo sources the brakes for the true M cars. I've owned a Hellcat and a Mustang and the 6-piston Brembos on those cars don't make a sound. Not an M car but still...

I've seen comments where owners of M performance models that have M brakes also squeal here and there, and while I don't have any empirical data to prove this, I can tell you anecdotally that I mainly here it from M5 owners. There are M5 owners in this specific thread even that have the X5. Maybe Maverik259 can share his experience?

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by ResIpsaLoquitur

Shawn, thanks for the input. This is what I have been told before and was part of the reason I was hesitant to go with either one of those. My car does not see anywhere near the track duty that yours does, so your brake needs are much more heavy duty than mine. Are you running with ACG or Porterfield now? Or have you gone back to OEM after trying them?

ACG/Porterfield both tell you straight up that their compound isn't as aggressive. On metals on my 2018 I used BMW OEM pads until RacingBrake had some pads that I used. I was pleased with all, and didn't have much squeal with any of them, but I brake hard a lot and it leaves a good transfer layer that prevents squeak.

When I got the M5 CS, it only came with carbons. I would not have chose those, because replacement costs are pretty high. I spent Sunday after my second track event this year replacing the front pads. They were ALMOST to the wear sensors. For $1000 front pads from dealer (and $600-700 over the internet with discount), that's pretty steep.

The ACG/Porterfields are just a less aggressive compound, so they can't brake as hard as the OEM. Both are good pads but the characteristics of pads are what they are.

Shawn

[ResIpsaLoquitur]

Originally Posted by Justao

Yes, 100% silent. You worry too much, it's a cheap and effective solution. Can't go wrong with either ebc or portfield. No performance issues whatsoever.

Thanks for the advice!

[ResIpsaLoquitur]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

ACG/Porterfield both tell you straight up that their compound isn't as aggressive. On metals on my 2018 I used BMW OEM pads until RacingBrake had some pads that I used. I was pleased with all, and didn't have much squeal with any of them, but I brake hard a lot and it leaves a good transfer layer that prevents squeak.

When I got the M5 CS, it only came with carbons. I would not have chose those, because replacement costs are pretty high. I spent Sunday after my second track event this year replacing the front pads. They were ALMOST to the wear sensors. For $1000 front pads from dealer (and $600-700 over the internet with discount), that's pretty steep.

The ACG/Porterfields are just a less aggressive compound, so they can't brake as hard as the OEM. Both are good pads but the characteristics of pads are what they are.

Shawn

Thanks again, Shawn. It seems like going with aftermarkets are just swapping one problem (brake noise) with another (reduced braking ability). That's a problem for me, even thought my car will never see the track time yours does. I appreciate your input!

Too bad on a car this nice and this expensive that I can't have my cake and eat it, too.

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by ResIpsaLoquitur

Thanks again, Shawn. It seems like going with aftermarkets are just swapping one problem (brake noise) with another (reduced braking ability). That's a problem for me, even thought my car will never see the track time yours does. I appreciate your input!

Too bad on a car this nice and this expensive that I can't have my cake and eat it, too.

Everything is a compromise. Have you tried bedding the brakes REALLY hard somewhere late at night? I swear my OEM pads were never really that bad, but that's because of 150-60mph braking I think.

Shawn

[ResIpsaLoquitur]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

Everything is a compromise. Have you tried bedding the brakes REALLY hard somewhere late at night? I swear my OEM pads were never really that bad, but that's because of 150-60mph braking I think.

Shawn

I first tried from about 50 to 0 with full force braking 3 or 4 times in a row at least 100 different times. Those stops cause the squealing to stop up until I shut my engine off after. Whether that happens to be 5 minutes, or 5 hours later, the squeal begins immediately once I subsequently start the engine.

I have also tried applying full force braking from about 100 to 0 a few times in a row in the middle of nowhere on multiple occasions. It is a temporary solution for typically a day at best, but then always returns.

I would imagine that doing the braking from 150+ miles per hour gives you temporary respite, albeit a longer one. Are you doing that kind of braking on a track day, then driving the car normally for say a week, and then doing a track again and not having squeal in between?

[micvite]

Originally Posted by ResIpsaLoquitur

I first tried from about 50 to 0 with full force braking 3 or 4 times in a row at least 100 different times. Those stops cause the squealing to stop up until I shut my engine off after. Whether that happens to be 5 minutes, or 5 hours later, the squeal begins immediately once I subsequently start the engine.

I have also tried applying full force braking from about 100 to 0 a few times in a row in the middle of nowhere on multiple occasions. It is a temporary solution for typically a day at best, but then always returns.

I would imagine that doing the braking from 150+ miles per hour gives you temporary respite, albeit a longer one. Are you doing that kind of braking on a track day, then driving the car normally for say a week, and then doing a track again and not having squeal in between?

For me personally I end up doing 100+ to say 30 on every off ramp so I never get to experience it haha. But I'm 1k miles in a week mix of highway and regular driving and no squeek so far, did bed the brakes in with about 15-20 hard 100-20 stops over a period of 2 days and let them cool off in between runs. Only thing I can complain about is the brake dust haha. One pic I wiped off a section so you can see the color of the actual wheel lol

[AHall]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

ACG/Porterfield both tell you straight up that their compound isn't as aggressive. On metals on my 2018 I used BMW OEM pads until RacingBrake had some pads that I used. I was pleased with all, and didn't have much squeal with any of them, but I brake hard a lot and it leaves a good transfer layer that prevents squeak.

When I got the M5 CS, it only came with carbons. I would not have chose those, because replacement costs are pretty high. I spent Sunday after my second track event this year replacing the front pads. They were ALMOST to the wear sensors. For $1000 front pads from dealer (and $600-700 over the internet with discount), that's pretty steep.

The ACG/Porterfields are just a less aggressive compound, so they can't brake as hard as the OEM. Both are good pads but the characteristics of pads are what they are.

Shawn

Shawn are you saying your CCB pads on your M5 CS in the front already need replacing?

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by AHall

Shawn are you saying your CCB pads on your M5 CS in the front already need replacing?

Already replaced. 3000+ miles, 2 track events, probably 8 hours of track time. I can send a pic if you like. I'm saving the pads in case of pad failure (happens with track).

They were RIGHT at the wear indicator. I'm kinda surprised they didn't trigger it.

Shawn

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by ResIpsaLoquitur

I first tried from about 50 to 0 with full force braking 3 or 4 times in a row at least 100 different times. Those stops cause the squealing to stop up until I shut my engine off after. Whether that happens to be 5 minutes, or 5 hours later, the squeal begins immediately once I subsequently start the engine.

I have also tried applying full force braking from about 100 to 0 a few times in a row in the middle of nowhere on multiple occasions. It is a temporary solution for typically a day at best, but then always returns.

I would imagine that doing the braking from 150+ miles per hour gives you temporary respite, albeit a longer one. Are you doing that kind of braking on a track day, then driving the car normally for say a week, and then doing a track again and not having squeal in between?

At VIR (my local track) I do two 157-160 to 60mph brake zones each lap, and then multiple other small brake zones per lap. I do this 20-30 minutes per session four times each day (average), two days per weekend when I go (I've gone two weekends this year).

I drive the car to and from the track and intermittently in the meantime. The thick layer of brake pad on the rotors then keeps the squeals down. This is how brakes are supposed to work (but just street pads can be made to do this, it's just harder to make happen, and they don't brake as well at high speeds).

About 6 100-30 mph stops on the late night expressway might help you avoid this trouble. You could try the other compounds. It will just cost you some cash $

Shawn

[mjr24]

Powder blue Subaru? Definitely two girls from the "woke" tribe.

[mjr24]

Originally Posted by ResIpsaLoquitur

I first tried from about 50 to 0 with full force braking 3 or 4 times in a row at least 100 different times. Those stops cause the squealing to stop up until I shut my engine off after. Whether that happens to be 5 minutes, or 5 hours later, the squeal begins immediately once I subsequently start the engine.

I have also tried applying full force braking from about 100 to 0 a few times in a row in the middle of nowhere on multiple occasions. It is a temporary solution for typically a day at best, but then always returns.

I would imagine that doing the braking from 150+ miles per hour gives you temporary respite, albeit a longer one. Are you doing that kind of braking on a track day, then driving the car normally for say a week, and then doing a track again and not having squeal in between?

This is just fucking ridiculous you have to do this. Maybe BMW will actually do something about this the first time someone dies going from 150 to 60 and sues their asses all because they were trying to bed in their loud brakes. I'd rather crappier brakes if it meant they were quiet.

[micvite]

Originally Posted by mjr24

This is just fucking ridiculous you have to do this. Maybe BMW will actually do something about this the first time someone dies going from 150 to 60 and sues their asses all because they were trying to bed in their loud brakes. I'd rather crappier brakes if it meant they were quiet.

Where does bmw say you have to do anything? Anything you do with the car is on you, if you die going 150 that liability is on no one but yourself lol. Bmw tells you suck it up its normal not speed and bed in your brakes lol.

[ResIpsaLoquitur]

Originally Posted by mjr24

Powder blue Subaru? Definitely two girls from the "woke" tribe.

LOL, the WOKEST!

[ResIpsaLoquitur]

Originally Posted by mjr24

This is just fucking ridiculous you have to do this. Maybe BMW will actually do something about this the first time someone dies going from 150 to 60 and sues their asses all because they were trying to bed in their loud brakes. I'd rather crappier brakes if it meant they were quiet.

I agree with you that it's beyond ridiculous. A lot of people here will say they're supposed to be that way and that, or they're race brakes, or I am a Noob, etc. it seems that such an incredibly engineered car would also have quiet brakes figured out.

[ResIpsaLoquitur]

Originally Posted by micvite

Where does bmw say you have to do anything? Anything you do with the car is on you, if you die going 150 that liability is on no one but yourself lol. Bmw tells you suck it up its normal not speed and bed in your brakes lol.

You may be correct, but I can tell you I have seen auto manufacturers held liable for less, albeit under very, very specific (generally, failure to warn type defective products strict liability) circumstances. I could come up with a great argument how in a circumstance such as the one described, that BMW would in fact be a proper defendant, jointly and severally liable as a joint tortfeasor. It wouldn't be the strongest argument, but good enough to secure a judgment from a defendant with the means to pay out on it.

[jnotrom711]

Originally Posted by ResIpsaLoquitur

You may be correct, but I can tell you I have see auto manufacturers held liable for less, albeit under very, very specific (generally, failure to warn type defective products strict liability) circumstances. I could come up with a great argument how in a circumstance such as the one described, that BMW would in fact be a proper defendant, jointly and severally livable as a joint tortfeasor. It wouldn't be the strongest argument, but good enough to secure a judgment from a defendant with the means to pay out on it.

All it would take would be one service guy at a dealership recommending this high speed bedding technique as a "fix" , then an issue happens, like an accident, and the dealer and BMW have a real problem on their hands. Agree, manufactures get sued and have class action lawsuits for A LOT less. I would imagine there is a specific BMW bedding technique that they require or recommend the dealer do when they replace the brakes, or for diagnostic purposes. I would doubt it is recommended by the factory to exceed the speed limit by a good amount and slam on brakes to zero MPH. Thats a huge liability for them.

With that said, if everyone says that IS the fix.... where do they get this information from?

Since it is unlikely BMW recommends this. What do they actually recommend.... Nothing?

It's an issue, poor design, and a lot more people have the issue than dont.

Ive owned 2 m5's f10 and f90, several years apart. They BOTH did it. A good friend has an f90. Same thing.

So in my immediate circle involving M5s, we are 3 for 3. LOL.

That tells me the majority have the squeal.

There is a video on this forum somewhere with the M division engineer actually talking about the brakes squealing after being wet being normal. But he also states the squeal for prolonged period of time, is indeed NOT normal.

So who's right who's wrong?

Ive had 3x AMGs, 2x Lexus ISF, 911, f10, and f90 now, and the only brakes from those 8 cars to squeal were the f10 and f90. Odd? Not really, they both have the same brakes. And all the other cars definitely had similar performance brakes, 6 piston upfront, brembo sourced. Etc.

Its a flaw in the design, and BMW doesn't care to fix it. Options are to replace the brakes with aftermarket (questionable if any of these options work long term), sell the car, deal with it, or get BMW to fix it (aka DEAL WITH IT).

It sucks, $130,000.00 car sounds like a school bus. But the positives of the car outweigh it for me. So I just complain literally every single time the car is in for service big or small, I make them check the brake squeal and tell them its gotten worse. Maybe one day there will be a service bulletin to fix. LOL.

[jnotrom711]

Found the video!

At @2:30 they talk specifically about the noise and mention if it's permanent it's not normal. Words straight from the M engineer.

So why do the dealers say its normal and basically to "deal with it"

Saving this link for the next time im in the dealer LOL

[ResIpsaLoquitur]

Originally Posted by jnotrom711

All it would take would be one service guy at a dealership recommending this high speed bedding technique as a "fix" an issue happens like an accident, and the dealer and BMW have a real problem on their hands. Agree, manufactures get sued and have class action lawsuits for A LOT less. I would imagine there is a specific BMW bedding technique that they require or recommend the dealer do when they replace the brakes, or for diagnostic purposes. I would doubt it is recommended by the factory to exceed the speed limit by a good amount and slam on brakes to zero MPH. Thats a huge liability for them.

With that said, if everyone says that IS the fix.... where do they get this information from?

Since it is unlikely BMW recommends this. What do they actually recommend.... Nothing?

It's an issue, poor design, and a lot more people have the issue than dont.

Ive owned 2 m5's f10 and f90, several years apart. They BOTH did it. A good friend has an f90. Same thing.

So in my immediate circle involving M5s, we are 3 for 3. LOL.

That tells me the majority have the squeal.

There is a video on this forum somewhere with the M division engineer actually talking about the brakes squealing after being wet being normal. But he also states the squeal for prolonged period of time, is indeed NOT normal.

So who's right who's wrong?

Ive had 3x AMGs, 2x Lexus ISF, 911, f10, and f90 now, and the only brakes from those 8 cars to squeal were the f10 and f90. Odd? Not really they both have the same brakes. And all the other cars definitely had similar performance brakes, 6 piston upfront, brembo sourced. Etc.

Its a flaw in the design, and BMW doesn't care to fix it. Options are to replace the brakes with aftermarket (questionable if any of these options work long term), sell the car, deal with it, or get BMW to fix it (aka DEAL WITH IT).

It sucks, $130,000.00 car sounds like a school bus. But the positives of the car outweigh it for me. So I just complain literally every single time the car is in for service big or small, I make them check the brake squeal and tell them its gotten worse. Maybe one day there will be a service bulletin to fix. LOL.

Agree with everything here. I was coming back to elaborate on a further point of product misuse and the failure to warn and just saw your comment. You just segued me into it. If BMW is aware that people are bedding their brakes in this manner, i.e. "product misuse," there is a good argument to be made that they should explicitly be warning purchasers of the product in the form of written warnings NOT to do that. As far as I know, (if someone knows otherwise, please provide the source!) there has been no such warning by BMW to not attempt to silence the breaks in this manner. In many states, this is even true even if it should be obvious to the end user to not attempt to silence brakes in this manner.

Further, manufacturers of products are generally required to design around or "design out" certain product misuses. They've done completely the opposite here. That is to say, the manufacturer has a duty to take precautions to prevent certain anticipated misuse. That is certainly not the case here. The misuse is anticipated — BMW knows product users are doing this to silence the brakes, yet they aren't doing anything to prevent it (warning not to do it, or, making the brakes quiet enough that people don't use this dangerous method to silence the brakes). Essentially all the end user would have to prove is that a "reasonable alternative design" to the existing product design that causes the problem exists, that the cost to implement it is minimal, and that implementing the alternative design would prevent the product misuse. This generally results in strict liability on the manufacturer, absent other considerations that I won't get in to here.