[sdhotwn]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

This is why this topic ranks up there with politics, child rearing, and religion. "Engagement" is relative to the individual. Some folks will find the DCT engaging, and some need an archaic linkage controlled system to feel engaged.

Some people still like physical books, while others like a digital format.

Yeah. Pretty much that!

[thxbuff2001]

I have 4 manual cars, so I am thinking to add a DCT to alternate with my SCUD for Track days. I dont track that much though.

[medphysdave]

For what is worth. Coming from a zf8 and I expect the DCT is better. I don't think you'd ever dislike the DCT. That manual shifting with the gear lever still provides satisfaction, but numb compared to full manual.

It's very nice when you want to be lazy, and you can never go partially auto with a 6MT.

[Jimjamz]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

For what is worth. Coming from a zf8 and I expect the DCT is better. I don't think you'd ever dislike the DCT. That manual shifting with the gear lever still provides satisfaction, but numb compared to full manual.

It's very nice when you want to be lazy, and you can never go partially auto with a 6MT.

I agreed on this view. I have a ZF8 auto in our X4 M40i and never put it in manual as it's too laggy. The DCT in our F80 however never leaves manual and I use the lever as well as the paddles all the time. I've previously had a E60 M5 with SMG and it was horrendous - sold it again in 6 weeks! This current DCT generation is a gem and it will be missed.

[medphysdave]

Not sure if DCT vs Manual is going to be a big debate.

[Jimjamz]

Originally Posted by Turbomeister

Autos will keep being faster and faster too . Who wants an E46 with SMG nowadays.. the achilles heel of the E46 CSL is the gearbox .. in some years , the DCT will feel slow in comparison.

I struggle with the DCT being considered too slow. You get to a point where shift speed is not the issue. I regularly use DCT on 2 as 3 is just too whip sharp. My sense is that BMW's DCT shift speed is already at a point of human expectation whereas autos aren't yet for drivers that want to control gear switch points.

[FrozenB7]

Originally Posted by sdhotwn

Nobody every really goes back and says that a 20 or 30 year old car's experience is "ruined" by the notchy, difficult, or heavy/vague throws of the manuals. Part of the character and experience that go with the manual. While the DCT is high performing, it is simply clinical. Much about cars in the long run is the emotional experience. If you are buying the car to have the fastest track option, or you don't like a manual in traffic etc. That makes sense to me. However, the comments I've seen around "the last DCT that BMW will make", I personally think "nobody is ever going to care". That's like saying "it was the last 6 speed auto they made before the 8 speed ZF came out". It is still for all intents and purposes in the driving experience an automatic transmission - there isn't a skill required of the driver to execute it, and the tactile sensations are much less.

Point being, the manual, even when "not great" still holds more experience for the driver than the best auto style box regardless of technological underpinning.

100 times all of this. I don’t understand people saying this manual is ‘terrible.’ Compared to what? It’s fine. Just enjoy the experience. I feel very blessed to be able to DD a 6MT M2 CS. It even makes traffic more eventful! I love driving a MT daily because it makes boring driving fun and fun driving rewarding.

[Davil]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

This is why this topic ranks up there with politics, child rearing, and religion. "Engagement" is relative to the individual. Some folks will find the DCT engaging, and some need an archaic linkage controlled system to feel engaged.

Some people still like physical books, while others like a digital format.

Yes. And the ZF is Fox News. Or even worse, Facebook. Choose your poison.

[Davil]

Originally Posted by Jimjamz

I struggle with the DCT being considered too slow. You get to a point where shift speed is not the issue. I regularly use DCT on 2 as 3 is just too whip sharp. My sense is that BMW's DCT shift speed is already at a point of human expectation whereas autos aren't yet for drivers that want to control gear switch points.

It's just people that have never owned one or associate some concept of skill with pressing a pedal with their left foot which is about as difficult as using a fork. Best transmission ever. More engaging at speed. Less engaging If you are driving Miss Daisy, but maybe that's better in that particular situation.

[uhn2000]

Different opinion here apologies.

For what its worth I just picked up an M2CS and had ordered it in 6MT. My plan for this car was to be a fun daily in MT as an alternative to my Afla Quad Stelvio and 991 Porsche Speedster. All my cars have carbon ceramic breaks and I will say that the M2CS ones are amazing, worth the upgrade. As per the 6MT, I am not a fan of the BMW MT, I think if they don't invest in it might as well stop making it. Its very rubbery and the clutch delay valve is a disaster. Had I ordered this car again I would have gone DCT, I have even asked my rep to see if I can get another one in DCT. Its one heck of a package but now I fear I might have to do a ton of work to upgrade the MT and I am not a huge fan of modding my cars.

[thxbuff2001]

Originally Posted by uhn2000

Different opinion here apologies.

For what its worth I just picked up an M2CS and had ordered it in 6MT. My plan for this car was to be a fun daily in MT as an alternative to my Afla Quad Stelvio and 991 Porsche Speedster. All my cars have carbon ceramic breaks and I will say that the M2CS ones are amazing, worth the upgrade. As per the 6MT, I am not a fan of the BMW MT, I think if they don't invest in it might as well stop making it. Its very rubbery and the clutch delay valve is a disaster. Had I ordered this car again I would have gone DCT, I have even asked my rep to see if I can get another one in DCT. Its one heck of a package but now I fear I might have to do a ton of work to upgrade the MT and I am not a huge fan of modding my cars.

Yep, their modern BMW MT sucks. No matter how slow you release the clutch from 1st to 2nd, it jumps like a horse. My e39 is better. And I have a 997RS,997turbo and 997 GTS all in manual.

[Acetech]

It's not the transmission that is rubbery, it's the shift lever. It's BMWs best manual transmission to date.
If you want to add mechanical exactness then see Ronald for his shifter kits.

http://www.autosolutions.info/

[medphysdave]

Originally Posted by Acetech

It's not the transmission that is rubbery, it's the shift lever. It's BMWs best manual transmission to date.
If you want to add mechanical exactness then see Ronald for his shifter kits.

http://www.autosolutions.info/

What is it about the shift lever that makes it rubbery? It's clearly an issue because AS seems to do well correcting the issue. It doesn't seem like something that would be difficult or expensive for bmw to correct. Is it bushings, slop in linkage, both, etc. Does it really require a whole new shift mechanism?

[medphysdave]

Originally Posted by thxbuff2001

Yep, their modern BMW MT sucks. No matter how slow you release the clutch from 1st to 2nd, it jumps like a horse. My e39 is better. And I have a 997RS,997turbo and 997 GTS all in manual.

Forgive my ignorance. I was under the impression that the CDV would more slowly engage the clutch to reduce the "shock" of letting clutch out too fast. I would have expected the CDV to result in the opposite of a 1-2 shift lurch.

Or does the trouble come in from the driver trying to modulate the clutch, but not being able to because there isn't a linear correlation between clutch pedal position and friction plate engagement? In other terms the driver lets out clutch, but perceives to little movement (cdv slowing things down), driver lets out clutch pedal more to induce desire engagement, but now this is too far???

[sdhotwn]

I still go back to my F30 that I drive every day. I don't have any issues with the clutch - it doesn't have the most obvious takeup point, but i have no issue shifting it smoothly. My gearshift lever is nice and smooth and lacks most of the "rubbery" feel, but I did swap to the MPerformance shift knob the day I bought it, which lacks as much of the isolator inside the shift knob. I'd consider the overall system one of the better manuals I've driven. This is including Porsche manual, Mazda, Honda, Toyota, etc. Including famed S2000, GT4, etc MT's. The OG M2 MT I test drove did not feel appreciably different either.

My E36 is pretty awful though, and I drove large trucks for a while in high school and college. So my spectrum is relatively wide

Mountains out of molehills? *shrug*

[Acetech]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

What is it about the shift lever that makes it rubbery? It's clearly an issue because AS seems to do well correcting the issue. It doesn't seem like something that would be difficult or expensive for bmw to correct. Is it bushings, slop in linkage, both, etc. Does it really require a whole new shift mechanism?

The upper and lower half's of the shifter lever are joined by rubber filled cavity, there is no metal to metal connection. BMW does not consider this a design flaw but instead a design feature to eliminate NVH, give that luxury feel.
AS and other short shifter makers sometimes use a similar design but with a much firmer urethane to join the upper and lower half's of the shifter or a solid one piece lever, that along with tighter tolerance joints and bushings with all metal no plastic, shifter carriages are sometimes offered and carriage mount bushings made of firm urethane and Delrin take it to the next level.
Not all parts are offered for every car as some models need things more than others.

[GimmeanM]

Originally Posted by Acetech

The upper and lower half's of the shifter lever are joined by rubber filled cavity, there is no metal to metal connection. BMW does not consider this a design flaw but instead a design feature to eliminate NVH, give that luxury feel.
AS and other short shifter makers sometimes use a similar design but with a much firmer urethane to join the upper and lower half's of the shifter or a solid one piece lever, that along with tighter tolerance joints and bushings with all metal no plastic, shifter carriages are sometimes offered and carriage mount bushings made of firm urethane and Delrin take it to the next level.
Not all parts are offered for every car as some models need things more than others.

Acetech Are you using any SSK in your 1M? I was thinking about a Rogue Engineering kit for the CS. Do you have any input on them versus Auto Solutions? I have driven an M2C a few times and did feel it was worse than my stock 1M (which does have the CDV delete done).

[Acetech]

I never touched the shifter in the 1M, felt it was ok, now my E46 M3 is another story, I felt that really needed improvement, Ronald (auto solutions)provided me a customized full kit for that and it's super precise without being to stiff or short/tight. Also had a AS shifter in my E36M3 for most of it's life.
Looking at the Rogue vs Auto solutions I can see the AS kit includes a additional link between the lever and transmission as well as his own design knuckle pivot that attaches to the transmission as well as all metal joints and ball on the lever (no plastic).

[thxbuff2001]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

Forgive my ignorance. I was under the impression that the CDV would more slowly engage the clutch to reduce the "shock" of letting clutch out too fast. I would have expected the CDV to result in the opposite of a 1-2 shift lurch.

Or does the trouble come in from the driver trying to modulate the clutch, but not being able to because there isn't a linear correlation between clutch pedal position and friction plate engagement? In other terms the driver lets out clutch, but perceives to little movement (cdv slowing things down), driver lets out clutch pedal more to induce desire engagement, but now this is too far???

This may help why it jumps from 1st to 2nd no matter how good you are.
https://www.zeckhausen.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=6562

Interesting that bmw deleted a cdv in an e39 m5 which now explains why my e39 m5 drives shifts like my porsche compared to my f10 m5. This is the solution, do a cdv delete on all m2 mt and it will be heaven.

[CarJunkie]

I did a CDV delete on my 1M very early on. Before that it felt impossible to drive correctly. After the delete, it's pure bliss.

[thxbuff2001]

Originally Posted by CarJunkie

I did a CDV delete on my 1M very early on. Before that it felt impossible to drive correctly. After the delete, it's pure bliss.

What brand of valve did you use?

[Yvette]

If you have a othee car 6mt purely for driving pleasure, get the m2cs dct. I mean for only one car, I would get 6mt.