[M5stallion]

Originally Posted by onfireX5

Why ? Mine stock is almost 21psi. + 3 - 4 isn’t crazy. IAT stayed under 115F.

Do you think solely because your IAT is safe your motor is as well, seriously?

Several have blown the s63tu up running over 22-23psi, the ones that did not were lucky. The tuned ones who built their motors noticed when they opened up the motor the rods were bent....

[onfireX5]

Originally Posted by M5stallion

Do you think solely because your IAT is safe your motor is as well, seriously?

Several have blown the s63tu up running over 22-23psi, the ones that did not were lucky. The tuned ones who built their motors noticed when they opened up the motor the rods were bent....

Have you hand tuned any v8 turbo engines? Not installed someone’s tune, but scratch built your own on a one off engine combo ?

Now , do an internet search, and educate yourself on the deltas between the tu4 and the s63tu.

Start with explaining to us the difference in MAF sensors between the platforms. Then progress to IC, boost profiles, and internals.

Geeeeeez.

IAT is critical. Not the only parameter, but one that starts the party.

[M5stallion]

Originally Posted by onfireX5

Have you hand tuned any v8 turbo engines? Not installed someone’s tune, but scratch built your own on a one off engine combo ?

Now , do an internet search, and educate yourself on the deltas between the tu4 and the s63tu.

Start with explaining to us the difference in MAF sensors between the platforms. Then progress to IC, boost profiles, and internals.

Geeeeeez.

IAT is critical. Not the only parameter, but one that starts the party.

Running more torque than the rods can handle is more important than a parameter. The internals are the same so if some ignoramus runs enough boost (over 24-25psi) the rods will twist like pretzels.... the f90 already runs considerably more boost than the f10 with no changes to internals.

[onfireX5]

Originally Posted by M5stallion

Running more torque than the rods can handle is more important than a parameter. The internals are the same so if some ignoramus runs enough boost (over 24-25psi) the rods will twist like pretzels.... the f90 already runs considerably more boost than the f10 with no changes to internals.

Not exactly. Cylinder pressure and where torque falls on the powerband, preignition, detonation, etc etc. can compromise rod integrity.

So, you know for a fact the 2018 TU4 has the exact same rods as the old engine????????

[onfireX5]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TTM5 “”Terry, in your experience with the s63tu and new f90 motor, at what boost/torque more or less do the stock rods start to bend?
Haven't broken anything yet on our 2015 at ~750whp... Probably detonation and blowing apart a piston is a higher risk and that can happen at any power level if fuel quality is poor enough.””

[M5stallion]

Originally Posted by onfireX5

Not exactly. Cylinder pressure and where torque falls on the powerband, preignition, detonation, etc etc. can compromise rod integrity.

So, you know for a fact the 2018 TU4 has the exact same rods as the old engine????????

Yes, it is the same bottom end!

[onfireX5]

Originally Posted by M5stallion

Yes, it is the same bottom end!

And how do you know that ?

[M5stallion]

.

[M5stallion]

Originally Posted by onfireX5

And how do you know that ?

It’s the same engine except for the following changes:

‘F90 M5: S63B44T4 engine
With a closed-deck, aluminium-silicon alloy (Alusil) crankcase produced at BMW's Landshut light-alloy foundry, the S63B44T4 90-degree V8 engine had 88.3 mm bores and an 89.0 mm stroke for a capacity of 4395 cc. The S63B44T4 featured an aluminium alloy cylinder head, high-precision direct petrol injection (at pressures up to 350 bar), twin-scroll turbochargers, a pulse-tuned exhaust manifold, double overhead camshafts, variable intake and exhaust camshaft timing (double VANOS), four valves per cylinder, BMW's 'Valvetronic III' variable valve control, a compression ratio of 10.0:1, DME MEVD17.2.8 engine management and wet sump lubrication.

Compared to the engine in the F10 M5, the F90 M5 engine has:
Newly developed turbochargers;
Higher fuel injection pressures (350 bar, previously 200 bar);
Improved lubrication and cooling systems (including an oil pan with a small front sump and more efficient indirect charge air cooling); and,
Modified cross-bank exhaust manifolds to optimise the transmission of energy from the exhaust gas flows to the turbine wheels of the turbochargers.’

[onfireX5]

Originally Posted by M5stallion

It’s the same engine except for the following changes:

‘F90 M5: S63B44T4 engine
With a closed-deck, aluminium-silicon alloy (Alusil) crankcase produced at BMW's Landshut light-alloy foundry, the S63B44T4 90-degree V8 engine had 88.3 mm bores and an 89.0 mm stroke for a capacity of 4395 cc. The S63B44T4 featured an aluminium alloy cylinder head, high-precision direct petrol injection (at pressures up to 350 bar), twin-scroll turbochargers, a pulse-tuned exhaust manifold, double overhead camshafts, variable intake and exhaust camshaft timing (double VANOS), four valves per cylinder, BMW's 'Valvetronic III' variable valve control, a compression ratio of 10.0:1, DME MEVD17.2.8 engine management and wet sump lubrication.

Compared to the engine in the F10 M5, the F90 M5 engine has:
Newly developed turbochargers;
Higher fuel injection pressures (350 bar, previously 200 bar);
Improved lubrication and cooling systems (including an oil pan with a small front sump and more efficient indirect charge air cooling); and,
Modified cross-bank exhaust manifolds to optimise the transmission of energy from the exhaust gas flows to the turbine wheels of the turbochargers.’

Ummmmm. No.

[M5stallion]

Originally Posted by onfireX5

And how do you know that ?

Only an ignoramus would expect a new motor from a technical update LOL

[onfireX5]

Originally Posted by M5stallion

Only an ignoramus would expect a new motor from a technical update LOL

.:lol :

You're bouncing all over the place with "answers".

Keep them coming. If anything, you are amusing.

[M5stallion]

Originally Posted by onfireX5

.:lol :

You're bouncing all over the place with "answers".

Keep them coming. If anything, you are amusing.

Good luck running 30psi on 91 octane and cast pistons



Maybe if you make a deal with your maf sensors and boost profiles the pistons will simply melt and not distribute the rest of the pieces throughout the motor

[onfireX5]

Originally Posted by M5stallion

Good luck running 30psi on 91 octane and cast pistons



Maybe if you make a deal with your maf sensors and boost profiles the pistons will simply melt and not distribute the rest of the pieces throughout the motor

30psi ? 91 octane ?

[cookiesowns]

Crankshaft is the same between the TU2 and TU4 motors, along with bearing shells.

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/part...&q=11217616597

Pistons are unique to the TU4, http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/part...&q=11258092931

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/part...&q=11247852246

As are the rods.

Originally Posted by onfireX5

IAT is critical. Not the only parameter, but one that starts the party.

IAT is not really that critical. It's timing, and low end torque that starts the party. These DME's have very sophisticated compensation factors on ECT, Oil, IAT, and more.

[onfireX5]

Originally Posted by cookiesowns

Crankshaft is the same between the TU2 and TU4 motors, along with bearing shells.

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/part...&q=11217616597

Pistons are unique to the TU4, http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/part...&q=11258092931

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/part...&q=11247852246

As are the rods.



IAT is not really that critical. It's timing, and low end torque that starts the party. These DME's have very sophisticated compensation factors on ECT, Oil, IAT, and more.

I agree you can compensate for IAT. You can compensate for excessive timing with knock sensors, incorrect AF mapping with wide band feedback, etc etc. But it’s never optimum to do that. In the context of 25psi being too much boost, the first thing we would monitor on our dyno is IAT. If you start moving away from the center island on the compressor map, IAT always starts to rise. In the context of bending rods, we always evaluate lower rpm cylinder pressure. Sometimes timing adjustments or a camshaft change to bleed off CP allows some packages to survive, that had been compromising “budget” components in 1000 to 1500 hp builds.

[cookiesowns]

Originally Posted by onfireX5

I agree you can compensate for IAT. You can compensate for excessive timing with knock sensors, incorrect AF mapping with wide band feedback, etc etc. But it’s never optimum to do that. In the context of 25psi being too much boost, the first thing we would monitor on our dyno is IAT. If you start moving away from the center island on the compressor map, IAT always starts to rise. In the context of bending rods, we always evaluate lower rpm cylinder pressure. Sometimes timing adjustments or a camshaft change to bleed off CP allows some packages to survive, that had been compromising “budget” components in 1000 to 1500 hp builds.

That's not what I'm saying at all, but your head seems on correct so I'll leave it.

What you've described is precisely what I'm referring to. How are you evaluating cylinder pressures, did you profile the motor or have combustion analysis tools implemented?

[onfireX5]

Originally Posted by cookiesowns

That's not what I'm saying at all, but your head seems on correct so I'll leave it.

What you've described is precisely what I'm referring to. How are you evaluating cylinder pressures, did you profile the motor or have combustion analysis tools implemented?

You're cool.

If I'm scratch building a turbo V8 tune I go very slowly. Last scratch tune I bolted the car to the hub dyno (wheels off, direct connection....no tire slippage BS) and it took 3 days to get what I wanted. What I do for CP is my method and others have different/better methods. Without writing a book, I start off in Open Loop, I get the car to idle first, then pure cold start idle, then start working the VE in small increments down low. All keeping the boost to gate minimum. Then I start bringing the boost up at medium timing and reset VE for AFR. All the while Check, Check, Check the sparkplugs for CP issues and TQ curve for CP issues. Takes time to do it correctly my way....others I'm sure are faster and better. After many pulls you will develop an ocean kinda wave on the TQ curve vs VE and you know it's coming together. If it gets spiked , you have CP issues. After AFR is "finished" I enable Closed Loop and start making small adjustments. Then I start the timing table. I'm not a purist on MBT as others, but I'll approach MBT but always keep it under for safety. That is where PCP generally is, and you can hurt the best parts VERY quickly. I'm more comfortable going WOT and holding 1500rwhp at 7200rpm static and making changes on the laptop in real time vs holding 4200rpm and bouncing timing around for a few extra lb-ft. Also, keep checking Plugs,over and over and over. That's the semi long version.

Short version, plug readings vs timing curve vs rpm curve vs torque curve output vs knowing what torque/power/cylinder pressure the parts are designed to take.

[XXX-BEAST]

Originally Posted by cookiesowns

Crankshaft is the same between the TU2 and TU4 motors, along with bearing shells.

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/part...&q=11217616597

Pistons are unique to the TU4, http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/part...&q=11258092931

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/part...&q=11247852246

As are the rods.



IAT is not really that critical. It's timing, and low end torque that starts the party. These DME's have very sophisticated compensation factors on ECT, Oil, IAT, and more.

Why is the date of the rod 01/2016 onwards?

I agree low-end torque, timing, and a/f as well....

[allmotor_2000]

Having built a 1100whp s63tu... the s63tu4 rods aren't going to hold up much better. If you want that level of power, build the engine!

[KMORGSM5]

Originally Posted by allmotor_2000

Having built a 1100whp s63tu... the s63tu4 rods aren't going to hold up much better. If you want that level of power, build the engine!

Agreed, the rods are still a weak point.

[Steeve19M5CP]

Originally Posted by cookiesowns

Crankshaft is the same between the TU2 and TU4 motors, along with bearing shells.

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/part...&q=11217616597

Pistons are unique to the TU4, http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/part...&q=11258092931

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/part...&q=11247852246

As are the rods.



IAT is not really that critical. It's timing, and low end torque that starts the party. These DME's have very sophisticated compensation factors on ECT, Oil, IAT, and more.

Good thread and glad to know the Rods and pistons are improved in the F90 M5 engine(s63tu4) vs the weaker F10 M5 engine(s63tu)