[BackOnBlack]

Originally Posted by jnotrom711

I see the hot lap in the Lucid as promising for the new M5... If a young car company that doesn't have the racing heritage BMW has can make that equally fat pig drive decent around a track and have some record breaking or near record breaking speeds, then I see potential from BMW.

Just to interject a couple of points here: Lucid was founded by former F1 chassis engineers, who went on to compete in Formula-E for over 6 years and winning. They decided to build this car based on their experience and with Saudi and Dubai funding. Their specialties are in electric power delivery using multi-motors and aerodynamics. As part of their design, the Lucid has double-wishbone suspension on all four corners, which BMW cannot do due to limited space in the front of the car, and Porsche cannot do due to limited space in the rear, where their respective engines are positioned. This is also the reason that Porsche's effort in developing their pure sports EV is based on the mid-engine platform, placing the batteries in the middle and leaving room for advanced suspension systems, which is a must-do to manage the weight.

[j3o3t3]

Originally Posted by Greer

Wow here it is in plain English:

The new BMW M5 is said to weigh a colossal 2,435 kilograms (5,368 pounds). Almost 1000 pounds heavier than the F90 M5. Surely that can't be right?

That is so dang heavy , and it's going to be bigger / longer . Im disappointed that every generation is bigger , and now MUCH heavier .

May just have to drive my 991.2 T all the time

[jnotrom711]

Originally Posted by BackOnBlack

Just to interject a couple of points here: Lucid was founded by former F1 chassis engineers, who went on to compete in Formula-E for over 6 years and winning. They decided to build this car based on their experience and with Saudi and Dubai funding. Their specialties are in electric power delivery using multi-motors and aerodynamics. As part of their design, the Lucid has double-wishbone suspension on all four corners, which BMW cannot do due to limited space in the front of the car, and Porsche cannot do due to limited space in the rear, where their respective engines are positioned. This is also the reason that Porsche's effort in developing their pure sports EV is based on the mid-engine platform, placing the batteries in the middle and leaving room for advanced suspension systems, which is a must-do to manage the weight.

Well, this would be a great story and write up if it was accurate.... Appreciate the interjection.

Are you confusing double wish bone with 4 wheel independent suspension??? Vs independent front, and solid axle rear? or trailing arm rear? or something else?

1) the f90 , as well as f10, use double wish bone suspension, and a 5 link multi link rear. 5-link is actually quite similar to double wishbone, but technically speaking you're correct its not called double wishbone on the rear.

2) the Lucid sapphire does not have double wish bone front or rear suspension. So not even one 1 corner. It uses multilink in the front. (see chassis photo 1 below)

3) BMW has many many successful and highly capable engineer teams, as well as past f1 heritage, and many other successful race teams through out the years. I dont believe you actually think because Lucid hired some previous engineers from yesteryear... that BMW some how does not have capable engineers to compete. It's not as if the M division of BMW just started last year. They were the originators of the super saloon. Shoving a super car motor in a family sedan. They have plenty of past experience to draw on, which is why (for the most part) every M car past and present have been highly regarded and very capable on and off the track. This isn't like some biased BMW fan boy opinion, this is well known in the automotive world. If you don't think they have the capability to engineer a car as good or better than any electric car on the road, you're wrong. Will they? That remains to be seen. But BMW has always been at the top of the pecking chart for saloon cars. I dont see that changing just because of Lucid and Tesla.

Not to say there isnt other manufactures that do some great stuff, there most certainly is, and im not saying bmw is the best at everything, they arent. But they most certainly know what they're doing.

4) I assume in the statement about "Porsche not having room in the rear for double wishbone suspension" is referring to the 911? since you're speaking about rear engine? Well that is true in the rear, sorta, but several 911's most certainly (GT3 for instance), again, have double wish bone suspension front. Rear, most of them are a form of multi-link, similar to the rear of the BMW, and front of the LUCID.

5) I hope i'm not reading the fact that you think Porsche, of all cars, is ALSO inferior to Lucid for handling or track driving? Sure, maybe in their EV sedan that has 1/2 the power of the LUCID, just like the M5... but few people are buying Porsches for the EV sedan, the Taycan, is what it is, but most speak of Porsche in terms of the 911, which is the main car porsche people and automotive enthusiasts care about... I think we all know that. Especially as shown by the absolute plummeting of values on not just the porsche EVs but all EVs. meanwhile the 911 continues to be one of the least depreciating cars on the road.


See these 3 photos of the LUCID, and F90 M5 chassis/suspension. Those little things on top in the front of the F90? Wishbones.... LOL. and there is a form of a lower one you cant really see.

The LUCID? I see no wish bones, lol, I see multi link pin the front at least, similar to the rear of the M5. Rear is on the left in the Lucid photo 1, and photo 2 is the rear up close.

[BackOnBlack]

Firstly, thank you for the long response, I wish I had seen it earlier.

Originally Posted by jnotrom711

Well, this would be a great story and write up if it was accurate.... Appreciate the interjection.

Are you confusing double wish bone with 4 wheel independent suspension??? Vs independent front, and solid axle rear? or trailing arm rear? or something else?

I am aware of the suspension geometry differences, and I don't think I am confusing them, certainly not with 4-link configuration. However, I might be confusing the cars . The Taycan and eTronGT family have double-wishbone configuration, and I probably thought the Air also has it, but based on the pictures, clearly the front does not. Although in the rear, the upper whishbone is there, cannot tell the lower part.

Originally Posted by jnotrom711

1) the f90 , as well as f10, use double wish bone suspension, and a 5 link multi link rear. 5-link is actually quite similar to double wishbone, but technically speaking you're correct its not called double wishbone on the rear.

I will disagree that a 5-link arrangement is 'similar' to double wishbone, simply because of the fact that the way 5-link configuration's control of the dynamic alignment vs. wishbone configuration.

Originally Posted by jnotrom711

3) BMW has many many successful and highly capable engineer teams, as well as past f1 heritage, and many other successful race teams through out the years. I dont believe you actually think because Lucid hired some previous engineers from yesteryear... that BMW some how does not have capable engineers to compete. It's not as if the M division of BMW just started last year. They were the originators of the super saloon. Shoving a super car motor in a family sedan. They have plenty of past experience to draw on, which is why (for the most part) every M car past and present have been highly regarded and very capable on and off the track. This isn't like some biased BMW fan boy opinion, this is well known in the automotive world. If you don't think they have the capability to engineer a car as good or better than any electric car on the road, you're wrong. Will they? That remains to be seen. But BMW has always been at the top of the pecking chart for saloon cars. I dont see that changing just because of Lucid and Tesla.

The most consistent marquee I owned over my lifetime has been BMW. I genuinely believe they are making the best cars in the market today and know about their racing heritage well. I was not comparing Lucid's to BMW, just stating that Lucid also has strong racing knowledge and experience. They are not clueless, that's really all.

Originally Posted by jnotrom711

4) I assume in the statement about "Porsche not having room in the rear for double wishbone suspension" is referring to the 911? since you're speaking about rear engine? Well that is true in the rear, sorta, but several 911's most certainly (GT3 for instance), again, have double wish bone suspension front. Rear, most of them are a form of multi-link, similar to the rear of the BMW, and front of the LUCID.

To my best knowledge, only the 992 GT3 and RS have front double wishone, rear is multilink (5). I am almost certain the next mid-engine platform will be all double wishbone.

Originally Posted by jnotrom711

5) I hope i'm not reading the fact that you think Porsche, of all cars, is ALSO inferior to Lucid for handling or track driving? Sure, maybe in their EV sedan that has 1/2 the power of the LUCID, just like the M5... but few people are buying Porsches for the EV sedan, the Taycan, is what it is, but most speak of Porsche in terms of the 911, which is the main car porsche people and automotive enthusiasts care about... I think we all know that. Especially as shown by the absolute plummeting of values on not just the Porsche EVs but all EVs. meanwhile, the 911 continues to be one of the least depreciating cars on the road.

I think you are reading a bit too much into what I wrote. However, I do not know if Porsche is inferior or not to Lucid. Only looking at lap times does not tell the story, but what Lucid has achieved is totally unexpected to me. I am sure Porsche has also taken note of it. This also depends on the model of Porsche we are looking at, no? Lucid won't compare to 911s in terms of overall performance, but Panamera or Taycan are fair game at this point. The resale value does not have anything to do with this discussion.

On a side note: I was at the Performance Center last weekend with 11 other people, who most did not own a BMW, nor had track experience. After the 1-day M School, seven out of the 11 said they are now considering the M5C as their next car . Its performance was impressive and it was my first time driving it on the track.

[Savoy2001]

Originally Posted by BackOnBlack

Firstly, thank you for the long response, I wish I had seen it earlier.


I am aware of the suspension geometry differences, and I don't think I am confusing them, certainly not with 4-link configuration. However, I might be confusing the cars . The Taycan and eTronGT family have double-wishbone configuration, and I probably thought the Air also has it, but based on the pictures, clearly the front does not. Although in the rear, the upper whishbone is there, cannot tell the lower part.

I will disagree that a 5-link arrangement is 'similar' to double wishbone, simply because of the fact that the way 5-link configuration's control of the dynamic alignment vs. wishbone configuration.


The most consistent marquee I owned over my lifetime has been BMW. I genuinely believe they are making the best cars in the market today and know about their racing heritage well. I was not comparing Lucid's to BMW, just stating that Lucid also has strong racing knowledge and experience. They are not clueless, that's reall all.


To my best knowledge, only the 992 GT3 and RS have front double wishone, rear is multilink (5). I am almost certain the next mid-engine platform will be all double wishbone.


I think you are reading a bit too much into what I wrote. However, I do not know if Porsche is inferior or not to Lucid. Only looking at lap times does not tell the story, but what Lucid has achieved is totally unexpected to me. I am sure Porsche has also taken note of it. This also depends on the model of Porsche we are looking at, no? Lucid won't compare to 911s in terms of overall performance, but Panamera or Taycan are fair game at this point. The resale value does not have anything to do with this discussion.

On a side note: I was at the Performance Center last weekend with 11 other people, who most did not own a BMW, nor had track experience. After the 1-day M School, seven out of the 11 said they are not considering the M5C as their next car . Its performance was impressive and it was my first time driving it on the track.

This last part is very cool to hear. I just wonder if the sentiment will be the same with this G90 variant coming.

[BackOnBlack]

Originally Posted by Savoy2001

This last part is very cool to hear. I just wonder if the sentiment will be the same with this G90 variant coming.

I had a bad misspelling in my original message on the last sentence. I meant to write that they are now considering the M5C as their next car. Sorry about that

[Savoy2001]

Originally Posted by BackOnBlack

I had a bad misspelling in my original message on the last sentence. I meant to write that they are now considering the M5C as their next car. Sorry about that

That's what I took it to mean anyway lol.

[jnotrom711]

Originally Posted by BackOnBlack

Firstly, thank you for the long response, I wish I had seen it earlier.


I am aware of the suspension geometry differences, and I don't think I am confusing them, certainly not with 4-link configuration. However, I might be confusing the cars . The Taycan and eTronGT family have double-wishbone configuration, and I probably thought the Air also has it, but based on the pictures, clearly the front does not. Although in the rear, the upper whishbone is there, cannot tell the lower part.

On the LUCID image the rear is on the left where there is no double wishbone on front OR rear of the LUCID, it does not have DWB suspension at all on any corner. The front is multi-link, thats what youre seeing. not the upper wish bone. Which aligns with what I was saying about multi-link being similar. It's not the same, but it has similarities, so similar, that it even looks like double WB, but its not. Thats what youre seeing, is the multi link front. there is not any double wishbone suspension front or rear on the Lucid. The rear is whats showing the 2nd image, and the rear in the first image is on the left (closer). Front is on further way. So when you're saying "rear the upper wishbone is there..." this actually the front. And it's not DWB. Its multilink. The links forming a type of upper wish bone.

I will disagree that a 5-link arrangement is 'similar' to double wishbone, simply because of the fact that the way 5-link configuration's control of the dynamic alignment vs. wishbone configuration.

See above response, it looks similar and operates the movement of the wheels, and drivetrain in a similar manner. But yes it is different


The most consistent marquee I owned over my lifetime has been BMW. I genuinely believe they are making the best cars in the market today and know about their racing heritage well. I was not comparing Lucid's to BMW, just stating that Lucid also has strong racing knowledge and experience. They are not clueless, that's really all.

I agree 100%. I never meant the LUCID is a dog and dont know what theyre doing either. What I was getting at is this : Everyone is complaining about the new M5's weight being 5300LBS, saying itll never handle, and never be a track contender at 5300LBs.... well as we can clearly see, the LUCID 5300 miss piggy destroys A LOT of very fast car around a track. To add to that... the X5M destroys some fast cars as well. I simply was getting at IF LUCID can figure out how to make an extremely fast car around a track, and its 5300lbs, I think BMW can as well. Simply put, dont write off the G90 M5 simply because of the weight. Do I think the M5 will be 1200 HP like the Lucid, NO. Do I think it will beat the Lucid? No. But will it be faster than the F90, and maybe G80 around a track? Very well could be. The G80 is not much quicker around a track than the F90. But the LUCID destroys them both. With being 5300 lbs. Of course it's 1200 HP, also, but I dont think it's far fetched to think a G90 can do better than the f90, and g80 currently.

To my best knowledge, only the 992 GT3 and RS have front double wishone, rear is multilink (5). I am almost certain the next mid-engine platform will be all double wishbone.
Yes this is correct, and thats what I wrote as well, I didnt know what porsche you were referring to regarding having no DWB suspension.


I think you are reading a bit too much into what I wrote. However, I do not know if Porsche is inferior or not to Lucid. Only looking at lap times does not tell the story, but what Lucid has achieved is totally unexpected to me. I am sure Porsche has also taken note of it. This also depends on the model of Porsche we are looking at, no? Lucid won't compare to 911s in terms of overall performance, but Panamera or Taycan are fair game at this point. The resale value does not have anything to do with this discussion.
I agree, lap times do not tell the story, at all, just like it wont with the G90, which is exactly my point. Everyone is so concerned about the weight and low power, but I would not write it off until we see it and drive it, it may surprise everyone. It may NOT also. It very well could be a piece of junk fat pig. But im simply saying to everyone else not to write it off... yet... Resale value youre right, irrelevant, what I was kind of adding context to is the comparison of Lucid to Porsche, and I dont think too many people would say a 911 GT3, 911 Turbo S, or several others are not good track cars. The Taycan? ITs ok, however, the entire EV market is in trouble, as seen by the plummeting values. So my point was no one is excited about them, and the 911 still holds value incredibly well, so that alone should be an indicator that the EV push by these manufactures is what it is, but we have quite a while to go before manufactures go purely EV, with the exception of Tesla, Lucid, and the like. People still want ICE. People still want V8s and true sports cars. With that said, maybe BMW can blend the two together and have a winner in the G90, we'll see.

On a side note: I was at the Performance Center last weekend with 11 other people, who most did not own a BMW, nor had track experience. After the 1-day M School, seven out of the 11 said they are now considering the M5C as their next car . Its performance was impressive and it was my first time driving it on the track.

Thats wonderful, and I agree, the F90 is an incredible car. Im hopeful the G90 will improve on it. Will it? I dont know. I have concerns. But I havent written it off like a lot of people have. And to solidify all my points anyway ... as you saif the F90 impressed you on the track... It does for a lot of people, but when it came out, with AWD, and 4300 LBs, people lost their minds, and "bmw is finished, bmw has lost their way, bmw doesnt care about enthusiasts anymore"... but as we can now see, that sentiment has since changed, the G80, and F90 are both incredible cars and top of their class as it sails off into the sunset.... lets all just give them a chance to impress us again with the G90. The point is we're hearing the same rhetoric about the fat pig G90 being "too heavy and not enough power blah blah blah, I'll never buy another BMW". We dont even know yet. So everyone needs to relax... If LUCID can make their 5300 lb EV run circles around the G80, and F90 around a track and 1/4 mile strip, I have hope BMW can at least improve on the F90. Im not saying itll be faster or handle better than the Lucid at all. Simply saying dont write it off, because it could very well be faster in the 1/4mile and around a track than the f90, and g80 M3. So if it's faster around a track, and 1/4 mile.... whats the problem with the 5300 LBs ? LOL.

[BackOnBlack]

Originally Posted by jnotrom711

Thats wonderful, and I agree, the F90 is an incredible car. Im hopeful the G90 will improve on it. Will it? I dont know. I have concerns. But I havent written it off like a lot of people have. And to solidify all my points anyway ... as you saif the F90 impressed you on the track... It does for a lot of people, but when it came out, with AWD, and 4300 LBs, people lost their minds, and "bmw is finished, bmw has lost their way, bmw doesnt care about enthusiasts anymore"... but as we can now see, that sentiment has since changed, the G80, and F90 are both incredible cars and top of their class as it sails off into the sunset.... lets all just give them a chance to impress us again with the G90. The point is we're hearing the same rhetoric about the fat pig G90 being "too heavy and not enough power blah blah blah, I'll never buy another BMW". We dont even know yet. So everyone needs to relax... If LUCID can make their 5300 lb EV run circles around the G80, and F90 around a track and 1/4 mile strip, I have hope BMW can at least improve on the F90. Im not saying itll be faster or handle better than the Lucid at all. Simply saying dont write it off, because it could very well be faster in the 1/4mile and around a track than the f90, and g80 M3. So if it's faster around a track, and 1/4 mile.... whats the problem with the 5300 LBs ? LOL.

I agree with you here. No one should write off BMW. The part I have trouble with people complaining about weight is most of them won’t take M5 (or M3 for that matter) to the track running 10-15 consecutive laps per session, 4 sessions a day. So, why does it matter what it weighs? From what I experienced at the Performance Center, the M5 will more than hold its own for 7-8 laps on any track, at least.

Porsche is very proud of their latest GT3 RS aero, and rightly so. But all that does is add weight to improve traction at high speeds

[jnotrom711]

Originally Posted by BackOnBlack

I agree with you here. No one should write off BMW. The part I have trouble with people complaining about weight is most of them won’t take M5 (or M3 for that matter) to the track running 10-15 consecutive laps per session, 4 sessions a day. So, why does it matter what it weighs? From what I experienced at the Performance Center, the M5 will more than hold its own for 7-8 laps on any track, at least.

Porsche is very proud of their latest GT3 RS aero, and rightly so. But all that does is add weight to improve traction at high speeds

Yes, which is great around a bend at 120MPH, lol.... But un general yes, there is no point because maybe 5% of the people who buy one take it to the limits. Same with the M5, M3, or any sports cars for that matter.

[italiabrain]

Originally Posted by BackOnBlack

I agree with you here. No one should write off BMW. The part I have trouble with people complaining about weight is most of them won’t take M5 (or M3 for that matter) to the track running 10-15 consecutive laps per session, 4 sessions a day. So, why does it matter what it weighs? From what I experienced at the Performance Center, the M5 will more than hold its own for 7-8 laps on any track, at least.

Porsche is very proud of their latest GT3 RS aero, and rightly so. But all that does is add weight to improve traction at high speeds

You can feel the weight of the current M5 in the turns already, especially tighter turns or relatively quick transitions back and forth, even at mildly enthusiastic street-use speeds. There's no need to treat the car like a track star to notice that much extra weight on an already porky sedan.

If you do have any intention of tracking, the added heft will absolutely eat consumables in addition to a huge dynamics penalty.

[Savoy2001]

You can justify away but added weight on any performance car is never ever a good thing. Adding a very large amount for batteries? Something no enthusiasts want or need is the worst way to add weight IMO. You have to add gobs of power fit the added weight penalty and still get very little from the power in that situation. This is simply terrible and never a good thing. Sorry.

[pmsteinm]

The real question is when a G90 hits 100,000 miles how good is the battery then? Or is it just dead weight? I know many M5 drivers are short term and lease so who cares. But if you want to keep the car for a while the battery will eventually become less effective. How many 10-year-old battery powered items do you own that still perform like new?

Batteries have a finite life cycle. If you deploy the battery a lot when driving it will wear out more. That will make the used G90 (and other similar cars) market interesting. You really want to know how many cycles the battery has on it, not just the miles. And we don't know how much usage the battery was designed for.

If we ever go all-electric I think I will join the lease bandwagon. Hooray for turning yet another consumer product into a throw-away device.

[subterFUSE]

Originally Posted by pmsteinm

The real question is when a G90 hits 100,000 miles how good is the battery then? Or is it just dead weight? I know many M5 drivers are short term and lease so who cares. But if you want to keep the car for a while the battery will eventually become less effective. How many 10-year-old battery powered items do you own that still perform like new?

Batteries have a finite life cycle. If you deploy the battery a lot when driving it will wear out more. That will make the used G90 (and other similar cars) market interesting. You really want to know how many cycles the battery has on it, not just the miles. And we don't know how much usage the battery was designed for.

If we ever go all-electric I think I will join the lease bandwagon. Hooray for turning yet another consumer product into a throw-away device.

The way that government regulations have been trending, I think leasing has become the option that makes the most sense. These cars are increasingly built with parts and materials that are not engineered to last. EV batteries are a glaring example, but even smaller things like using biodegradable materials wherever possible. I remember my E60 545i had recycled materials for the wire insulation and after 9 years the insulation was flaking off and exposing bare wires.

Personally, I no longer want to own one of these cars long-term. I treat them like Leo DiCaprio treats girlfriends. Date the 21 year old supermodel, and then dump her before she turns 25.

[imperfectluck]

Originally Posted by pmsteinm

The real question is when a G90 hits 100,000 miles how good is the battery then? Or is it just dead weight? I know many M5 drivers are short term and lease so who cares. But if you want to keep the car for a while the battery will eventually become less effective. How many 10-year-old battery powered items do you own that still perform like new?

Batteries have a finite life cycle. If you deploy the battery a lot when driving it will wear out more. That will make the used G90 (and other similar cars) market interesting. You really want to know how many cycles the battery has on it, not just the miles. And we don't know how much usage the battery was designed for.

If we ever go all-electric I think I will join the lease bandwagon. Hooray for turning yet another consumer product into a throw-away device.

Couldn't agree with you more of having to factor in the electric motor's remaining life into its resale.

We already know that residuals on this though will not be ideal as the number crunches at BMW will be taking into account the above. I look forward to seeing the lease agreement breakdowns when the G90 goes on sale.

I was never a lease kind of person but this car wouldn't be something I'd want to financially experience long term.