I get put in my place because of my brake squeal…LOL

jnotrom711 · 05-18-2022, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ResIpsaLoquitur

Agree with everything here. I was coming back to elaborate on a further point of product misuse and the failure to warn and just saw your comment. You just segued me into it. If BMW is aware that people are bedding their brakes in this manner, i.e. "product misuse," there is a good argument to be made that they should explicitly be warning purchasers of the product in the form of written warnings NOT to do that. As far as I know, (if someone knows otherwise, please provide the source!) there has been no such warning by BMW to not attempt to silence the breaks in this manner. In many states, this is even true even if it should be obvious to the end user to not attempt to silence brakes in this manner.

Further, manufacturers of products are generally required to design around or "design out" certain product misuses. They've done completely the opposite here. That is to say, the manufacturer has a duty to take precautions to prevent certain anticipated misuse. That is certainly not the case here. The misuse is anticipated — BMW knows product users are doing this to silence the brakes, yet they aren't doing anything to prevent it (warning not to do it, or, making the brakes quiet enough that people don't use this dangerous method to silence the brakes). Essentially all the end user would have to prove is that a "reasonable alternative design" to the existing product design that causes the problem exists, that the cost to implement it is minimal, and that implementing the alternative design would prevent the product misuse. This generally results in strict liability on the manufacturer, absent other considerations that I won't get in to here.

Boom! One of the more intelligent comments i've read regarding this brake problem, and it is a problem. Period.

BMW ignoring the issue, could create a bigger problem, and even their own engineer mentions prolonged or permanent brake noise is NOT normal. But yet dealers (who are obviously the end all be all and authority on all things brakes

) tell us to "pound sand, deal with it, its normal"... What I don't understand is why wouldn't the dealer want to fix it, or at least give the illusion they tried by replacing the rotors and pads ? They get reimbursed from BMW anyway for warranty work, labor and parts.

ResIpsaLoquitur · 05-19-2022, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jnotrom711

Quote:

Originally Posted by ResIpsaLoquitur

Agree with everything here. I was coming back to elaborate on a further point of product misuse and the failure to warn and just saw your comment. You just segued me into it. If BMW is aware that people are bedding their brakes in this manner, i.e. "product misuse," there is a good argument to be made that they should explicitly be warning purchasers of the product in the form of written warnings NOT to do that. As far as I know, (if someone knows otherwise, please provide the source!) there has been no such warning by BMW to not attempt to silence the breaks in this manner. In many states, this is even true even if it should be obvious to the end user to not attempt to silence brakes in this manner.

Further, manufacturers of products are generally required to design around or "design out" certain product misuses. They've done completely the opposite here. That is to say, the manufacturer has a duty to take precautions to prevent certain anticipated misuse. That is certainly not the case here. The misuse is anticipated — BMW knows product users are doing this to silence the brakes, yet they aren't doing anything to prevent it (warning not to do it, or, making the brakes quiet enough that people don't use this dangerous method to silence the brakes). Essentially all the end user would have to prove is that a "reasonable alternative design" to the existing product design that causes the problem exists, that the cost to implement it is minimal, and that implementing the alternative design would prevent the product misuse. This generally results in strict liability on the manufacturer, absent other considerations that I won't get in to here.

Boom! One of the more intelligent comments i've read regarding this brake problem, and is a problem. Period.

BMW ignoring the issue, could create a bigger problem, and even their own engineer mentions prolonged or permanent brake noise is NOT normal. But yet dealers (who are obviously the end all be all and authority on all things brakes

) tell us to "pound sand, deal with it, its normal"... What I don't understand is why wouldn't the dealer want to fix it, or at least give the illusion they tried by replacing the rotors and pads ? They get reimbursed from BMW anyway for warranty work, labor and parts.

They are certainly creating a bigger problem in that someday, when someone does injure themselves in that way, and goes after BMW for it, there is going to be one big (and controlling) question asked of BMW. And that is, "Did you know, or should you have known, that product users are committing product misuse (i.e., using this procedure) to bed their brakes?" There is obviously no other answer to that question than a resounding yes. The more and more evidence there is of people doing this, and proof that BMW knows/should know (in addition to the points above), allows the plaintiff to present a prima facie strict products liability case. Meaning that the plaintiff would survive a motion to dismiss by BMW and would have shown enough to get to a jury trial, if the plaintiff so desires. Simplified, in all, the plaintiff must prove that the product was unreasonably unsafe or unreasonably dangerous when it was designed, manufactured, or sold, the defect existed when the product left defendant, and the manufacturer expected and intended that the product would reach the consumer without changes to the product, and the plaintiff was injured by the defective product.

To add another wrinkle; it's not just manufacturers of products that are strictly liable — it's anyone in the downstream chain of commerce en route to the injured plaintiff. That includes the dealers themselves, and possibly marketers, distributors, etc. — all proper defendants, and the plaintiff may choose to seek damages from any or all of them, at plaintiff's election. Plaintiff can elect to sue just one party in the downstream chain of commerce for the entirety of their damages, if they so choose, and force the defendant that actually pays out, to go after other defendants that plaintiff did not sue to be indemnified for or contribute to the payout of the judgment once there has been an apportionment of the percentage of fault of each of the proper defendant(s). Perhaps if dealers were more familiar with these legal ramifications, and had their legal departments in their ear, they would be less prone to sweeping the brake matter under the rug.

ResIpsaLoquitur · 05-19-2022, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

Quote:

Originally Posted by ResIpsaLoquitur

I first tried from about 50 to 0 with full force braking 3 or 4 times in a row at least 100 different times. Those stops cause the squealing to stop up until I shut my engine off after. Whether that happens to be 5 minutes, or 5 hours later, the squeal begins immediately once I subsequently start the engine.

I have also tried applying full force braking from about 100 to 0 a few times in a row in the middle of nowhere on multiple occasions. It is a temporary solution for typically a day at best, but then always returns.

I would imagine that doing the braking from 150+ miles per hour gives you temporary respite, albeit a longer one. Are you doing that kind of braking on a track day, then driving the car normally for say a week, and then doing a track again and not having squeal in between?

At VIR (my local track) I do two 157-160 to 60mph brake zones each lap, and then multiple other small brake zones per lap. I do this 20-30 minutes per session four times each day (average), two days per weekend when I go (I've gone two weekends this year).

I drive the car to and from the track and intermittently in the meantime. The thick layer of brake pad on the rotors then keeps the squeals down. This is how brakes are supposed to work (but just street pads can be made to do this, it's just harder to make happen, and they don't brake as well at high speeds).

About 6 100-30 mph stops on the late night expressway might help you avoid this trouble. You could try the other compounds. It will just cost you some cash $

Shawn

Thanks for the advice, Shawn! Much appreciated! I am going to try the late night stops again.

ResIpsaLoquitur · 05-19-2022, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

Quote:

Originally Posted by AHall

Shawn are you saying your CCB pads on your M5 CS in the front already need replacing?

Already replaced. 3000+ miles, 2 track events, probably 8 hours of track time. I can send a pic if you like. I'm saving the pads in case of pad failure (happens with track).

They were RIGHT at the wear indicator. I'm kinda surprised they didn't trigger it.

Shawn

WOW, I'm not even going to ask what your tires are looking like.

jnotrom711 · 05-19-2022, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ResIpsaLoquitur

They are certainly creating a bigger problem in that someday, when someone does injure themselves in that way, and goes after BMW for it, there is going to be one big (and controlling) question asked of BMW. And that is, "Did you know, or should you have known, that product users are committing product misuse (i.e., using this procedure) to bed their brakes?" There is obviously no other answer to that question than a resounding yes. The more and more evidence there is of people doing this, and proof that BMW knows/should know (in addition to the points above), allows the plaintiff to present a prima facie strict products liability case. Meaning that the plaintiff would survive a motion to dismiss by BMW and would have shown enough to get to a jury trial, if the plaintiff so desires. Simplified, in all, the plaintiff must prove that the product was unreasonably unsafe or unreasonably dangerous when it was designed, manufactured, or sold, the defect existed when the product left defendant, and the manufacturer expected and intended that the product would reach the consumer without changes to the product, and the plaintiff was injured by the defective product.

To add another wrinkle; it's not just manufacturers of products that are strictly liable — it's anyone in the downstream chain of commerce en route to the injured plaintiff. That includes the dealers themselves, and possibly marketers, distributors, etc. — all proper defendants, and the plaintiff may choose to seek damages from any or all of them, at plaintiff's election. Plaintiff can elect to sue just one party in the downstream chain of commerce for the entirety of their damages, if they so choose, and force the defendant that actually pays out, to go after other defendants that plaintiff did not sue to be indemnified for or contribute to the payout of the judgment once there has been an apportionment of the percentage of fault of each of the proper defendant(s). Perhaps if dealers were more familiar with these legal ramifications, and had their legal departments in their ear, they would be less prone to sweeping the brake matter under the rug.

More than likely what would happen would be someone trying to do this bedding technique, and someone rear-ends them at full speed, and I suppose IF both people survived that, and someone had a good enough attorney, they could simply say "BMW told me this was how to fix my brakes" and attorneys would perk up and say "BMW said what? They recommend this as a fix for your brakes? You've brought it to their attention how many times? " and they'd be off to the races.... Likely both parties involved in the accident being able to sue BMW, the dealer, and anyone else (brembo?).

BMW !!! JUST FIX THE BRAKES IT CANT BE THAT BIG A DEAL!!!! There has to be something relatively simple they could do to retain the OEM performance and eliminate the issue.

"its normal".... No. It's not. Which is why you don't hear 99.99 % of the cars squealing like a pig about to be turned into bacon when coming to a stop at Starbucks to grab my latte and double smoke bacon sandwich

(seee what I did there?) mmm bacon

Normal is internal combustion cars creating exhaust noise(regulated heavily). Tires creating road noise (which I imagine has regulation also). Screeching when wear tabs on some cars hit the rotor alerting you brakes are needing replacement soon? Normal. Loud pig squealing brake noise with perfectly good brake pads and rotors, installed properly and working properly? Nope. Not normal. Nothing will convince me otherwise.

mjr24 · 05-19-2022, 03:36 AM

The 150 to 60 is obviously an extreme example. However, doesn't BMW say somewhere to go from highway speeds down to 20 or something to help with this??

I've had a ton of M cars and they all have done this so I know it's normal....it just sucks because no one has ever said "wow, nice car...it sounds like shit". You just don't expect that on a $130k car and to normal people...that isn't a "normal sound" you would think a car like this would make.

subterFUSE · 05-19-2022, 04:28 AM

I can attest that when I brake hard there is no squeal. I get squeal when I am braking gently under normal circumstances.

If I perform a very hard brake then I can alleviate the squeal for a while but it always returns.

micvite · 05-19-2022, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jnotrom711

Found the video!

At @2:30 they talk specifically about the noise and mention if it's permanent it's not normal. Words straight from the M engineer.

So why do the dealers say its normal and basically to "deal with it"

Saving this link for the next time im in the dealer LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYztbp8CzFk

Go to :40 or so watch the video literally the car comes to a stop SQUEEKING and they say let's tell you about our brakes so this do es nt worry you... by permanent they're talking about if the car at all speeds all braking conditions makes a noise not you coming to a slow stop and squeaking. That's a temporary noise since it doesn't squeek under hard braking at higher speeds.

G30 B58 · 05-19-2022, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

At VIR (my local track) I do two 157-160 to 60mph brake zones each lap, and then multiple other small brake zones per lap. I do this 20-30 minutes per session four times each day (average), two days per weekend when I go (I've gone two weekends this year).

I drive the car to and from the track and intermittently in the meantime. The thick layer of brake pad on the rotors then keeps the squeals down. This is how brakes are supposed to work (but just street pads can be made to do this, it's just harder to make happen, and they don't brake as well at high speeds).

About 6 100-30 mph stops on the late night expressway might help you avoid this trouble. You could try the other compounds. It will just cost you some cash $

Shawn

This here ^^ is the answer to most noisy brakes. Or,like Shawn states, a less aggressive pad.

The M5 or any M car can do everything from a full blown trackday or track weekend to ice cream and grocery runs. The brake pads must be able to withstand use at both ends of the spectrum.

Sell your M5 and go buy a Subaru if you want quiet brakes.

ResIpsaLoquitur · 05-19-2022, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jnotrom711

Quote:

Originally Posted by ResIpsaLoquitur

They are certainly creating a bigger problem in that someday, when someone does injure themselves in that way, and goes after BMW for it, there is going to be one big (and controlling) question asked of BMW. And that is, "Did you know, or should you have known, that product users are committing product misuse (i.e., using this procedure) to bed their brakes?" There is obviously no other answer to that question than a resounding yes. The more and more evidence there is of people doing this, and proof that BMW knows/should know (in addition to the points above), allows the plaintiff to present a prima facie strict products liability case. Meaning that the plaintiff would survive a motion to dismiss by BMW and would have shown enough to get to a jury trial, if the plaintiff so desires. Simplified, in all, the plaintiff must prove that the product was unreasonably unsafe or unreasonably dangerous when it was designed, manufactured, or sold, the defect existed when the product left defendant, and the manufacturer expected and intended that the product would reach the consumer without changes to the product, and the plaintiff was injured by the defective product.

To add another wrinkle; it's not just manufacturers of products that are strictly liable — it's anyone in the downstream chain of commerce en route to the injured plaintiff. That includes the dealers themselves, and possibly marketers, distributors, etc. — all proper defendants, and the plaintiff may choose to seek damages from any or all of them, at plaintiff's election. Plaintiff can elect to sue just one party in the downstream chain of commerce for the entirety of their damages, if they so choose, and force the defendant that actually pays out, to go after other defendants that plaintiff did not sue to be indemnified for or contribute to the payout of the judgment once there has been an apportionment of the percentage of fault of each of the proper defendant(s). Perhaps if dealers were more familiar with these legal ramifications, and had their legal departments in their ear, they would be less prone to sweeping the brake matter under the rug.

More than likely what would happen would be someone trying to do this bedding technique, and someone rear-ends them at full speed, and I suppose IF both people survived that, and someone had a good enough attorney, they could simply say "BMW told me this was how to fix my brakes" and attorneys would perk up and say "BMW said what? They recommend this as a fix for your brakes? You've brought it to their attention how many times? " and they'd be off to the races.... Likely both parties involved in the accident being able to sue BMW, the dealer, and anyone else (brembo?).

BMW !!! JUST FIX THE BRAKES IT CANT BE THAT BIG A DEAL!!!! There has to be something relatively simple they could do to retain the OEM performance and eliminate the issue.

"its normal".... No. It's not. Which is why you don't hear 99.99 % of the cars squealing like a pig about to be turned into bacon when coming to a stop at Starbucks to grab my latte and double smoke bacon sandwich

(seee what I did there?) mmm bacon

Normal is internal combustion cars creating exhaust noise(regulated heavily). Tires creating road noise (which I imagine has regulation also). Screeching when wear tabs on some cars hit the rotor alerting you brakes are needing replacement soon? Normal. Loud pig squealing brake noise with perfectly good brake pads and rotors, installed properly and working properly? Nope. Not normal. Nothing will convince me otherwise.

[COLOR="BLACK"]Normal is internal combustion cars creating exhaust noise(regulated heavily). Tires creating road noise (which I imagine has regulation also). Screeching when wear tabs on some cars hit the rotor alerting you brakes are needing replacement soon? Normal. Loud pig squealing brake noise with perfectly good brake pads and rotors, installed properly and working properly? Nope. Not normal. Nothing will convince me otherwise.
[/COLOR]

^ Well said!

ResIpsaLoquitur · 05-19-2022, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjr24

The 150 to 60 is obviously an extreme example. However, doesn't BMW say somewhere to go from highway speeds down to 20 or something to help with this??

I've had a ton of M cars and they all have done this so I know it's normal....it just sucks because no one has ever said "wow, nice car...it sounds like shit". You just don't expect that on a $130k car and to normal people...that isn't a "normal sound" you would think a car like this would make.

Thank you, you're second paragraph is the point I've been trying to make!

ResIpsaLoquitur · 05-19-2022, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subterFUSE

I can attest that when I brake hard there is no squeal. I get squeal when I am braking gently under normal circumstances.

If I perform a very hard brake then I can alleviate the squeal for a while but it always returns.

Just out of curiosity, how long is "a while" for you?

ResIpsaLoquitur · 05-19-2022, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G30 B58

Quote:

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

At VIR (my local track) I do two 157-160 to 60mph brake zones each lap, and then multiple other small brake zones per lap. I do this 20-30 minutes per session four times each day (average), two days per weekend when I go (I've gone two weekends this year).

I drive the car to and from the track and intermittently in the meantime. The thick layer of brake pad on the rotors then keeps the squeals down. This is how brakes are supposed to work (but just street pads can be made to do this, it's just harder to make happen, and they don't brake as well at high speeds).

About 6 100-30 mph stops on the late night expressway might help you avoid this trouble. You could try the other compounds. It will just cost you some cash $

Shawn

This here ^^ is the answer to most noisy brakes. Or,like Shawn states, a less aggressive pad.

The M5 or any M car can do everything from a full blown trackday or track weekend to ice cream and grocery runs. The brake pads must be able to withstand use at both ends of the spectrum.

Sell your M5 and go buy a Subaru if you want quiet brakes.

Exactly, BOTH ends of the spectrum. My driving habits mostly have me closer to the ice cream and groceries end, albeit being driven hard to and from those activities (why else would I get an M5 otherwise?)

I should not have to drive a Subaru to have quiet brakes when I am at that end…

carseatsm5 · 05-19-2022, 09:31 AM

My brakes don’t squeal and never have. I feel so lucky not to have this issue. I’m also terrified of when they need to be replaced.

shawnhayes · 05-19-2022, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ResIpsaLoquitur

Thanks for the advice, Shawn! Much appreciated! I am going to try the late night stops again.

This will help. But, would you be willing to try a less aggressive pad?

Shawn

shawnhayes · 05-19-2022, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ResIpsaLoquitur

WOW, I'm not even going to ask what your tires are looking like.

The Hoosiers that corded? Trashed. I replaced them with Pirelli PZ4C that I'm having to pull rocks out of them with needlenose pliers for storage because of how sticky they are.

Shawn

micvite · 05-19-2022, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

The Hoosiers that corded? Trashed. I replaced them with Pirelli PZ4C that I'm having to pull rocks out of them with needlenose pliers for storage because of how sticky they are.

Shawn

Lol even the prlirelli p zeros that came with the car are sticky enough I have literal holes from rocks sticking to the tire and running over then repeatedly, I can only imagine the pz4cs

ResIpsaLoquitur · 05-19-2022, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

Quote:

Originally Posted by ResIpsaLoquitur

Thanks for the advice, Shawn! Much appreciated! I am going to try the late night stops again.

This will help. But, would you be willing to try a less aggressive pad?

Shawn

I'd like to for the sake of getting the squeal to stop, but am a little concerned about reduced stopping power. I don't track my car like you do, but I do drive it hard. All the pads mentioned on the thread are reasonably priced enough to try one of those solutions out, and if problematic, I could always revert to OEM pads.

ResIpsaLoquitur · 05-19-2022, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

Quote:

Originally Posted by ResIpsaLoquitur

WOW, I'm not even going to ask what your tires are looking like.

The Hoosiers that corded? Trashed. I replaced them with Pirelli PZ4C that I'm having to pull rocks out of them with needlenose pliers for storage because of how sticky they are.

Shawn

Just had a friend tell me last week that he moved to those from sport cups and was never going back!

ResIpsaLoquitur · 05-19-2022, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by micvite

Quote:

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

The Hoosiers that corded? Trashed. I replaced them with Pirelli PZ4C that I'm having to pull rocks out of them with needlenose pliers for storage because of how sticky they are.

Shawn

Lol even the prlirelli p zeros that came with the car are sticky enough I have literal holes from rocks sticking to the tire and running over then repeatedly, I can only imagine the pz4cs

I have the same experience with the OEM Pirelliis you mentioned. Especially they've been preparing to pave a major road I travel on almost daily near me by milking the surface and I'll have dozens of rocks IN each tire when I get home. I've avoided the route, but added 20 mins to the drive, on a couple days because it was so bad.

I can't even imagine what shawnhayes is going through either.

shawnhayes · 05-20-2022, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ResIpsaLoquitur

I have the same experience with the OEM Pirelliis you mentioned. Especially they've been preparing to pave a major road I travel on almost daily near me by milking the surface and I'll have dozens of rocks IN each tire when I get home. I've avoided the route, but added 20 mins to the drive, on a couple days because it was so bad.

I can't even imagine what shawnhayes is going through either.

For the CS, it's the ONE reason I own an M5. Drive to track on the Michelin's, switch to the track wheels that came with me in the back seat with the track tires on, and then switch back for the drive home.

Problem solved.

Shawn

ResIpsaLoquitur · 05-20-2022, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

Quote:

Originally Posted by ResIpsaLoquitur

I have the same experience with the OEM Pirelliis you mentioned. Especially they've been preparing to pave a major road I travel on almost daily near me by milking the surface and I'll have dozens of rocks IN each tire when I get home. I've avoided the route, but added 20 mins to the drive, on a couple days because it was so bad.

I can't even imagine what shawnhayes is going through either.

For the CS, it's the ONE reason I own an M5. Drive to track on the Michelin's, switch to the track wheels that came with me in the back seat with the track tires on, and then switch back for the drive home.

Problem solved.

Shawn

Love that you pop the track set in the back seat. You are THE MAN.

05-19-2022, 03:36 AM	#94
mjr24 Colonel 1652 Rep 2,402 Posts Drives: M8 Comp GC, X7, AMG GT53 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Wisconsin iTrader: (0)	The 150 to 60 is obviously an extreme example. However, doesn't BMW say somewhere to go from highway speeds down to 20 or something to help with this?? I've had a ton of M cars and they all have done this so I know it's normal....it just sucks because no one has ever said "wow, nice car...it sounds like shit". You just don't expect that on a $130k car and to normal people...that isn't a "normal sound" you would think a car like this would make. __________________ 2022 M8 Comp GC, 2021 AMG GT53, 2022 X5M Competition, 2021 X7 40i, 2019 M5, 2018 M550I, 2017 Audi Q7, 2014 M6 GC, 2013 Mercedes CLS550, 2011 750LI, 2008 M6 Cabrio, 2008 Porsche Cayenne S, 2004 Mercedes SL55 AMG, 2003 Mercedes SL500, 2000 Mercedes CL500, 1993 Lexus SC400, 1989 525i, 1985 318i
	Appreciate 1 ResIpsaLoquitur4093.50 Quote

05-19-2022, 04:28 AM	#95
subterFUSE Captain 564 Rep 642 Posts Drives: 2023 Audi R8, 2023 Audi S8 Join Date: May 2006 Location: Mt Pleasant, SC iTrader: (0)	I can attest that when I brake hard there is no squeal. I get squeal when I am braking gently under normal circumstances. If I perform a very hard brake then I can alleviate the squeal for a while but it always returns.
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05-19-2022, 09:31 AM	#102
carseatsm5 Lieutenant 838 Rep 478 Posts Drives: 2020 M5 Join Date: Feb 2021 Location: CA iTrader: (0)	My brakes don’t squeal and never have. I feel so lucky not to have this issue. I’m also terrified of when they need to be replaced.
	Appreciate 1 shawnhayes1834.00 Quote