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      02-18-2019, 11:58 AM   #23
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dct is def more responsive and reacts better to inputs but the zf8 is still very very good. zf8 seems more refined it makes m5 feel like reg daily car. i noticed though if you bring it up to redline the zf8 holds the gear too long compared to dct in same situation. its honestly very close and honestly from cost perspective and daily use the zf8 is better.
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      02-18-2019, 12:41 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by limeypride View Post
Where do you get your data from about the ZF in the F90 M5? I have about 6,000 miles experience in it and while there are facets of the DCT transmission I'd like to have back, I still prefer the ZF overall.

I agree with you for the M2/M3/M4--they're far more laser-focused on the raw driving experience. However, performance and luxury (which incudes smooth shifts in normal driving) are exactly what the M5 is about--what's why I bought it... and my E63S (and, among other things, got rid of the E63S because I didn't like the rough-as-nails transmission). My RS7 also departed in part because of the transmission but, in that car's case, its ZF fully supports all of your concerns--it was tedious, fussy and labored/slow between shifts (unless you were in AMAX mode which only works from launches). The ZF in the M5 is not.
30km test drive with mix of normal road and mountain roads famous for hillclimbs near Arashiyama. ZFat does an excellent job when left in auto, but hesitates on manual shifts when pushed a bit. It did not want to downshift when I braked hard into a hairpin and dropped down to 2nd around 4,500 rpm even though there should have been plenty room. Thought it might be problem with the setting so I tried to raise it to three bars only to see it already on three I got tired of trying to get better out of Zfat and left it on auto most of the time and I've never done that in an M.

We own an E43(had 13' XFR as well), most likely slower shifting than E63S and I still prefer the shift feeling over ZFat which provides very little drama and fake head bang on upshifts(no actual impact but noise is there. You know what I mean).

I myself am a keen track driver but Tsuchiya describes best of how I felt driving M5 (soft damping yet very snappy at the limit unlike older Exx generations). Also refuses to downshift fast while braking at 5:50 and 6:45 after about 3 laps. Given, the transmission was in first bar but it downshifted faster before if you roll back a bit.



I just think that ZFat is not really suited for dedicated track driving thus unfit for the future M3. If it were, we would see a lot more M140i/M235i's running but we just don't. I go to Suzuka/Okayama with E92 DCTs but I have yet to see one reporting tranny overheating, although one reported a mild loss of shift speed after 10 laps at Okayama. Meanwhile the M235i's...

Meanwhile I agree F90 M5 suspension is much more compliant on road even in sport plus mode and I liked it. I just wished it has a sharp transmission response like DCT or even E63S.

M stands for motorsport and I want to see M division enforcing and teaching some characters to owners whether they like it or not, just like they used to.
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      02-18-2019, 01:14 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
30km test drive with mix of normal road and mountain roads famous for hillclimbs near Arashiyama. ZFat does an excellent job when left in auto, but hesitates on manual shifts when pushed a bit. It did not want to downshift when I braked hard into a hairpin and dropped down to 2nd around 4,500 rpm even though there should have been plenty room. Thought it might be problem with the setting so I tried to raise it to three bars only to see it already on three I got tired of trying to get better out of Zfat and left it on auto most of the time and I've never done that in an M.

We own an E43(had 13' XFR as well), most likely slower shifting than E63S and I still prefer the shift feeling over ZFat which provides very little drama and fake head bang on upshifts(no actual impact but noise is there. You know what I mean).

I myself am a keen track driver but Tsuchiya describes best of how I felt driving M5 (soft damping yet very snappy at the limit unlike older Exx generations). Also refuses to downshift fast while braking at 5:50 and 6:45 after about 3 laps. Given, the transmission was in first bar but it downshifted faster before if you roll back a bit.



I just think that ZFat is not really suited for dedicated track driving thus unfit for the future M3. If it were, we would see a lot more M140i/M235i's running but we just don't. I go to Suzuka/Okayama with E92 DCTs but I have yet to see one reporting tranny overheating, although one reported a mild loss of shift speed after 10 laps at Okayama. Meanwhile the M235i's...

Meanwhile I agree F90 M5 suspension is much more compliant on road even in sport plus mode and I liked it. I just wished it has a sharp transmission response like DCT or even E63S.

M stands for motorsport and I want to see M division enforcing and teaching some characters to owners whether they like it or not, just like they used to.
Thanks for the great response!

I think this comes down to 'different strokes for different folks'. While I do 'race' my cars, the only bend I find is the U-turn at the end of the dragstrip--the steering wheel and paddles are mostly optional .

I've found that the ZF struggles shifting down during lateral Gs but never under hard braking or the like. If I had the car right now, I'd go take a video and post it but, alas, I do not.

Of my E63S, I can confidently say that that car has one of the fastest 1-2 shifts I've ever experienced... but it's an inconsistent pig most everywhere else... unless it wants to be smooth at that particular point; its inconsistency drives me nuts.
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      02-20-2019, 05:15 PM   #26
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Finally got to drive a F90 and as expected was disappointed in the transmission. Frankly the manual operation is a generation behind the old DCT box and that's a real shame. In 55k miles on my F10 I've done maybe 100 in automatic mode so favorable automatic operation is something I don't even care about.

- The gears are too short, trying to go around a corner from a standstill in first gear and hit a paddle simply is a chore and you're almost forced to use the gear stick to do it. There is a certain sense of occasion in the F10 when winding out the engine in 3rd and 4th gear for example since it is geared so long. The F90 just rips through gears like it's nothing.

- Paddle response and overall input delay is lacking big time especially on up-shifts at say 1/2 to 3/4 throttle and is really annoying coming from a DCT.

- Actual shifts just seem inconsistent from what I found, the 1-2 shift actually seemed OK for the shift time but 2-3 often time the car bucked like the computer pulls all torque for a momentary lapse and I simply didn't like it.

Now does this kill the experince of the car? Not really.. but for me I'm swaying more towards finding a 2019 M6 GC when the time is right over an M5. I really expected the transmission to feel different than say a 340i but it honestly doesn't.

Admittedly I am a gearbox snob of the highest regard. I think people who thought the DCT was bad in their M3/M4 were right on the money, despite it being the same Getrag unit the programming was wayyyyy different, the inputs were delayed compared to the F10 and the shifts never felt as crisp.

All my bitching comes from a place of understanding the pickle BMW was in when trying to go AWD with the new car and figuring out a transmission to use. A lot of use didnt understand why they couldnt use the ZF 8DT unit in the panamera but as we found out is substantially heavier than the auto box. Also the input delay on the new 8DT unit seems to be terrible from what Ive seen from videos of the panamera and then sure enough Chris Harris mentions it also in his review of the new 992 carrera. It's also telling that the Porsche GT cars are going to be sticking to the old 7 speed PDK unit for responsiveness and weight reasons.
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      02-20-2019, 06:28 PM   #27
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A lot of use didnt understand why they couldnt use the ZF 8DT unit in the panamera but as we found out is substantially heavier than the auto box.
Not only weight, but also the ZF 8AT has the input and output shaft in-line with each other, but the ZF 8DT doesn't. This probably requires more significant re-engineering of the G30 platform than what BMW wanted to do.
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      02-21-2019, 12:25 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by somer View Post
Finally got to drive a F90 and as expected was disappointed in the transmission. Frankly the manual operation is a generation behind the old DCT box and that's a real shame. In 55k miles on my F10 I've done maybe 100 in automatic mode so favorable automatic operation is something I don't even care about.

- The gears are too short, trying to go around a corner from a standstill in first gear and hit a paddle simply is a chore and you're almost forced to use the gear stick to do it. There is a certain sense of occasion in the F10 when winding out the engine in 3rd and 4th gear for example since it is geared so long. The F90 just rips through gears like it's nothing.

- Paddle response and overall input delay is lacking big time especially on up-shifts at say 1/2 to 3/4 throttle and is really annoying coming from a DCT.

- Actual shifts just seem inconsistent from what I found, the 1-2 shift actually seemed OK for the shift time but 2-3 often time the car bucked like the computer pulls all torque for a momentary lapse and I simply didn't like it.

Now does this kill the experince of the car? Not really.. but for me I'm swaying more towards finding a 2019 M6 GC when the time is right over an M5. I really expected the transmission to feel different than say a 340i but it honestly doesn't.

Admittedly I am a gearbox snob of the highest regard. I think people who thought the DCT was bad in their M3/M4 were right on the money, despite it being the same Getrag unit the programming was wayyyyy different, the inputs were delayed compared to the F10 and the shifts never felt as crisp.

All my bitching comes from a place of understanding the pickle BMW was in when trying to go AWD with the new car and figuring out a transmission to use. A lot of use didnt understand why they couldnt use the ZF 8DT unit in the panamera but as we found out is substantially heavier than the auto box. Also the input delay on the new 8DT unit seems to be terrible from what Ive seen from videos of the panamera and then sure enough Chris Harris mentions it also in his review of the new 992 carrera. It's also telling that the Porsche GT cars are going to be sticking to the old 7 speed PDK unit for responsiveness and weight reasons.
Hmmm, how many miles did you do on the test drive? How many miles were on the car?

Combined, I have ~90,000 miles across F10 and F06 DCTs and ~6,000 in the F90. Some of what you say resonates with me but your conclusion doesn't. Like you, I drive in manual mode ~90% of the time but I'm not *unhappy* with the new tranny. That said, you'll note my deliberate double-negative wording--the DCT is still my preference... but I remain very happy with the car because, to me, the transmission is most certainly good enough when viewed as a part of this fantastic machine as a whole.
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      02-21-2019, 08:58 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by limeypride View Post
Hmmm, how many miles did you do on the test drive? How many miles were on the car?

Combined, I have ~90,000 miles across F10 and F06 DCTs and ~6,000 in the F90. Some of what you say resonates with me but your conclusion doesn't. Like you, I drive in manual mode ~90% of the time but I'm not *unhappy* with the new tranny. That said, you'll note my deliberate double-negative wording--the DCT is still my preference... but I remain very happy with the car because, to me, the transmission is most certainly good enough when viewed as a part of this fantastic machine as a whole.
Only about 25 miles or so. I do agree the transmission is *good enough* but it's sad we're even saying that is what I'm trying to get at. Pay 120k for a car and I feel like it's a downgrade in that department. Don't get me wrong like I said to a friend at the dealership, I feel the car is an upgrade in every other department... steering feel, handling, technology, looks, etc. But to me the transmission is such an integral part of the car it just is a bit off-putting.

What ya gonna do though....
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      02-21-2019, 03:00 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by somer View Post
Only about 25 miles or so. I do agree the transmission is *good enough* but it's sad we're even saying that is what I'm trying to get at. Pay 120k for a car and I feel like it's a downgrade in that department. Don't get me wrong like I said to a friend at the dealership, I feel the car is an upgrade in every other department... steering feel, handling, technology, looks, etc. But to me the transmission is such an integral part of the car it just is a bit off-putting.

What ya gonna do though....
I wondered if it was fairly brief and on a new car. My drive home was ~1,800 miles once I was done with the required backroad course deviations and the transmission sharpened up over time. I'm told it's the "adaptation capabilities" of the tranny software learning your drive preferences--I buy it. If you're anywhere near Seattle (I don't recall if you've mentioned/posted your locale), I'd be happy to let you try my car.

// EDIT: just remembered, you're in FL--well, I'm considering moving back but likely too late by then
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      02-22-2019, 08:56 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by limeypride View Post
I wondered if it was fairly brief and on a new car. My drive home was ~1,800 miles once I was done with the required backroad course deviations and the transmission sharpened up over time. I'm told it's the "adaptation capabilities" of the tranny software learning your drive preferences--I buy it. If you're anywhere near Seattle (I don't recall if you've mentioned/posted your locale), I'd be happy to let you try my car.

// EDIT: just remembered, you're in FL--well, I'm considering moving back but likely too late by then
I will definitely give the car another drive, especially since I'll only be considering a Competition model. Possible that the LCI Competition brings some small gearbox software tweaks, who knows. Thanks for the offer though!
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      02-24-2019, 09:58 PM   #32
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I do agree the transmission is *good enough* but it's sad we're even saying that is what I'm trying to get at.
It went from THE super sedan to a super sedan. Makes alpina b5 more attractive than ever.
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      02-25-2019, 07:10 PM   #33
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It went from THE super sedan to a super sedan. Makes alpina b5 more attractive than ever.
Ugh, not to me it doesn't. That thing was styled in the 1980s.
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      04-03-2019, 01:24 PM   #34
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I owned an F10 M5 for 3.5 years and now the F90 M5 since December. The only thing I've noticed that I prefered about the DCT is it's easier to not hit the rev limiter when shifting myself. But, in auto mode it's much better. Also, I've noticed I shift this car myself much more than my F10. This seems odd, but I think it's more related to the sounds the F90 Competition makes when down shifting more so than that transmissions is more fun to drive.

The gears are very low, which makes it harder to shift manually. But, the car is so much faster in all situations (slow corners, damp roads, etc) and the auto-mode works so well...I don't miss the previous transmission at all. It still shifts hard enough, but isn't as abrupt as the DCT (cuz racecar). That abruptness is fun, but not a plus, IMO.
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      04-10-2019, 02:51 PM   #35
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I don't own an M5, but I had the same zf8 on my X5M for 3 years, as well as experience with PDK and the DCT with my 911 and my M3.
I consider the goal of any transmission to be:
1. fun to drive manually
2. to be in the gear you desire when you desire it as quickly as possible.

Considering this, the zf8 has been one of the reasons I disliked my driving experience with the X5M.

Perhaps they have made some improvements on the zf programming, so I may be wrong but here is my evaluation of the zf8:

+
shifts as fast or is actually faster than the dct on 1 gear changes
works much better in auto mode vs DCT, on parity with the PDK

-
Does not down shift multi gear requests very well: example- if you are in 7th and want to go to 5th, the zf will go to 6th then 5th. if you are in 7th and want to go in 4th, it will go 7-6-4, skipping 5th. Both PDK and DCT skip immediately, 2,3, gears etc.

Abrupt downshifts- DCT and PDK will downshift immediately and smoothly, while the zf will jolt on downshifts at high RPMs. DCT/PDK will snap gears on upshifts which is much more satisfactory at WOT, the zf will not.

Overheat- prolonged very aggressive manual shifting has over heated my x5m 3 times, I have never had this on PDK or DCT.

Overall, the dct/pdk has been great imitating a manual gearbox, because it is. The zf does its best, but is not as satisfying to drive.
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      01-11-2020, 11:08 PM   #36
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Thanks for all the replies! Just wanted to circle back around I have finally been able to drive an f10 m5 and an f90 m5 comp.

First of all both are phenomenal cars and I feel pretty different.
I have an f80 m3 and I love how raw the car feels. It feels like a legal race car on the street. Scary if you aren't careful with traction control off.
I LOVE THAT. So driving the f10 I feel that and the shifting is basically the same since Its the same box.

Now the f90 feels like an amazing luxury car. But did not feel scary at all. Its so well isolated and quite I just didn't feel any drama. Now the car was fast as hell and amazing but I feel like its too fast for streets to actually enjoy the drama. Either way it did shift well just different. I understand the reason they went the way they did and maybe it will grow on me.

I would be happy with either!
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Last edited by Gimlitehdwarf; 01-11-2020 at 11:10 PM.. Reason: Didnt like my conclusion
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      01-12-2020, 04:16 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkhm3 View Post
I don't own an M5, but I had the same zf8 on my X5M for 3 years, as well as experience with PDK and the DCT with my 911 and my M3.
I consider the goal of any transmission to be:
1. fun to drive manually
2. to be in the gear you desire when you desire it as quickly as possible.

Considering this, the zf8 has been one of the reasons I disliked my driving experience with the X5M.

Perhaps they have made some improvements on the zf programming, so I may be wrong but here is my evaluation of the zf8:

+
shifts as fast or is actually faster than the dct on 1 gear changes
works much better in auto mode vs DCT, on parity with the PDK

-
Does not down shift multi gear requests very well: example- if you are in 7th and want to go to 5th, the zf will go to 6th then 5th. if you are in 7th and want to go in 4th, it will go 7-6-4, skipping 5th. Both PDK and DCT skip immediately, 2,3, gears etc.

Abrupt downshifts- DCT and PDK will downshift immediately and smoothly, while the zf will jolt on downshifts at high RPMs. DCT/PDK will snap gears on upshifts which is much more satisfactory at WOT, the zf will not.

Overheat- prolonged very aggressive manual shifting has over heated my x5m 3 times, I have never had this on PDK or DCT.

Overall, the dct/pdk has been great imitating a manual gearbox, because it is. The zf does its best, but is not as satisfying to drive.
Well, the F90 does downshift multiple gears, just need to hold the downshift paddle while flooring the throttle and there you go 2,3 gears down

Or, better yet, in automatic mode, just a dab of the throttle and there you are from 7th in 3rd
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      01-14-2020, 12:08 PM   #38
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Having had a 2014 M5 with DCT and now just having picked up a 2020 M5 I find the ZF8 to be damn close to the DCT to the point that I don't miss it. For me, it's not a big difference.
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      06-23-2020, 12:51 AM   #39
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Another question,

Do any of you guys ever put it in 2 wheel drive mode?
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      11-03-2022, 09:55 PM   #40
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F10 previous and current F90 LCI Comp owner

I agree with a lot that has been said. While I do miss the somewhat violent clunking shifts of the DCT, i can't imagine it's good for the drivetrain. That said, the zf is so smooth it doesn't feel as engaging. I think though that plenty of folks would complain if they kept the DCT in the F90, saying that for a $120,000 luxury super saloon it should be civil to drive it. It's always about the other grass right. Overall I am very pleased and think the F90 Is an improvement in every way. The transmission is up for debate but there's no question this is an easy car to drive fast. If you want a hard car to drive fast this is not it, there's the hellcat or the blackwing. There's always going to be some compromise that has to be made.
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      05-25-2023, 12:44 PM   #41
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This is something that I have been thinking about. I think the evolution over all is better but I do believe I would miss the DCT a little. but with all the other good about the car change is a must and over all f90 wins over the f10.
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      05-25-2023, 09:36 PM   #42
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This is something that I have been thinking about. I think the evolution over all is better but I do believe I would miss the DCT a little. but with all the other good about the car change is a must and over all f90 wins over the f10.
I owned an F10 previously before the F90, I get what you're saying about the DCT... But I don't miss it at all, and doubt many do especially with everything else the F90 offers that is much more superior.

Overall, for a daily driver, the ZF is much better, smoother, refined, and still is plenty capable for a performance type transmission.
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      07-29-2023, 04:31 PM   #43
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I like the zf just as much as the DCT, and I’m pretty sure it’s going to hold 800hp way better. I think all these e40 F90 cars would be frying DCT’s right now.
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