[TrevorM3]

Originally Posted by WayneM3

I find it hard to believe that there is THAT much of a difference between the cars - from an owner of one of the lower class M5C's!

Yeah, exactly. But a comp makes your cock about 2 inches bigger, so there's that. The difference between a comp,and noncomp, is negligible on the street. Give me a break.

[MSchfiftyFive]

Originally Posted by AHall

This whole steering feeling thing, is this something you only notice when on a race track or pushing the car to its limits?

Yup, at least what I was talking about anyway. True road holding feel (communicated through the steering wheel) "at the limit" literally means you need to be pushing the car hard to even know what that feels like. Most folks likely won't ever push either version of the car hard enough to notice the differences, hah. It's also why I think the M5C is just right for me though, it's got just enough edge, all the time. If it had any more than this, I'd get tired of driving it as a daily through my pothole filled city, our roads are terrible.

[dappercivility]

My personal opinion is that I would not take motoring journalist reviews too seriously. They might have just driven maybe a GT3RS before reviewing the M5C and found the M5C too heavy and less sharp and would affect their review and conclusions.

Important thing is for us that we go test drive the car we are.considering to buy and get a proper feel of the car. As long we like it, we can go ahead to buy it.

[secretariat]

Originally Posted by AHall

I am curious about this as well. What is the difference? Is it hardware or software? I never understood the whole steering feel thing anyways. The closest I will get to a racetrack is my recent trip to Andretti's cart racing. I wouldn't want a car that feels like a go kart.

How old are you? Are you saying you never drove an 1990's BMW or AUDI? Steering feel is not just about the racetrack. If you really don't understand the whole steering feel thing that is a shame.

[AHall]

Originally Posted by secretariat

How old are you? Are you saying you never drove an 1990's BMW or AUDI? Steering feel is not just about the racetrack. If you really don't understand the whole steering feel thing that is a shame.

Correct never drove BMW or Audi cars from that era. I don't know, maybe it is a shame maybe not. I do not have a problem with the steering of the F90. For me the steering is fine.

[brad65ford]

Originally Posted by dappercivility

My personal opinion is that I would not take motoring journalist reviews too seriously. They might have just driven maybe a GT3RS before reviewing the M5C and found the M5C too heavy and less sharp and would affect their review and conclusions.

Important thing is for us that we go test drive the car we are.considering to buy and get a proper feel of the car. As long we like it, we can go ahead to buy it.

While I do agree to some point with what your saying, hearing multiple respected journalist have similarly feelings to myself at times when taking a turn-in (lack of connected feeling). Regardless, I do wonder what can be changed to make if feel more connected. Wouldn't be surprised if it was something as simple as changing alignment settings and or steering programming, regardless, its something that has been noticed.

[Andy4114]

A car with responsive chassis and manual/part electronic steering will give you road feel even in everyday driving. If you happen to get a black ice patch, your steering will become light as you steer, hinting road is slippery. Oil and wet patch on the roads are better communicated with steering feel. This is lacking big time in newer vehicles as they are overweight, tech laden machines with computer doing half your job and it wont let you participate actively. All these lane departure warning, steering assist, auto cruise control mess up a good steering by adding an electronic layer. The fake heavy steering is an insult on top, aka “sports mode”. Hilarious.

Newer BMWs may have accurate steering (personally I feel its vague) but they lack road feel. If you never experienced e46/e90 alikes, you will be at peace with the newer ones. 2020 M340i is a joke in the steering feel department, a lost car on road with no fun in even changing lanes or pushing hard through the corners, I have to hand over my life to the tires while cornering hard bcos steering communicates nothing and chassis is just there, it is so uninspiring. That fake engine sound in cabin is a shame. Fat steering (I wont even start). Its a crime to lend a half M badge to that car if not for Marketing. You go next to 5 series and added weight and body makes it even less fun. The M5 comp is a great car with 600 hp, comfy cabin, insulated ride, good technology but an ordinary steering, there is nothing great about handling and communication with the road. You never feel the car as your body, its just a detached rocket to break traffic speed limits.

Throttle house pointed an important issue of too much insulation and numb steering, resultantly, no road feel or connection. It’s an insulated experience, as they said. No wonder amateur bmw pilots end up in a ditch when the rear snaps even with the xdrive and they don't see it coming. Numb steering in an M car (even in half M) is totally unacceptable.

[MNoob]

When I first drove the M5 I thought the steering felt weird. Something about it is artificial and contrived. Like a computer game sending fake feedback from bad algorithms. After buying a lotus elise, it feels more pronounced. It's not just that the M5 is numb, there's something weird about it. Based on driving the two cars back to back, which I do often, it's not just at the limit where it can be felt. If the CS makes even a small dent in fixing the steering feel, that car would be so much more rewarding to drive.

[Used2be]

Originally Posted by MNoob

After buying a lotus elise, it feels more pronounced. It's not just that the M5 is numb, there's something weird about it. Based on driving the two cars back to back, which I do often, it's not just at the limit where it can be felt.

Let me see, comparing two cars for steering feel, what might be major factors that would affect the feel? One car weighs 4,400 pounds and has the engine on the front axle, the other car 2,000 pounds with a mid-engine design. The heavier car has wheels and tires that are twice as wide, which car would feel more nimble and connected to the road?

For a more real world comparison of how BMW is doing with their steering, perhaps driving another make of car with similar proportions and construction might be appropriate.

[MNoob]

Originally Posted by Used2be

Let me see, comparing two cars for steering feel, what might be major factors that would affect the feel? One car weighs 4,400 pounds and has the engine on the front axle, the other car 2,000 pounds with a mid-engine design. The heavier car has wheels and tires that are twice as wide, which car would feel more nimble and connected to the road?

For a more real world comparison of how BMW is doing with their steering, perhaps driving another make of car with similar proportions and construction might be appropriate.

My intention wasn't really to compare the two. Driving an Elise just confirmed what I felt in the M5 steering. It's weird.

[Day Laborer]

Originally Posted by MNoob

My intention wasn't really to compare the two. Driving an Elise just confirmed what I felt in the M5 steering. It's weird.

https://www.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...php?p=27972570

Shared my thoughts after driving them back to back, sharing the same initial impressions as the M5C owner, and a friend who is an F10 M5 owner.

I honestly think it's improved by leaps and bounds, but there is nothing I can say to convince those who are in doubt.

[Andy4114]

Originally Posted by Used2be

Let me see, comparing two cars for steering feel, what might be major factors that would affect the feel? One car weighs 4,400 pounds and has the engine on the front axle, the other car 2,000 pounds with a mid-engine design. The heavier car has wheels and tires that are twice as wide, which car would feel more nimble and connected to the road?

For a more real world comparison of how BMW is doing with their steering, perhaps driving another make of car with similar proportions and construction might be appropriate.

I have a 4745lbs 750i f01 and it has a better steering feel, more connected to road than 2021 3,5,7 series and even M5. Weight won’t affect steering feel, of course it would feel heavy in corners and more body roll but no, even heavier cars have better steering feel than today’s M models.

[Andy4114]

Originally Posted by MNoob

My intention wasn't really to compare the two. Driving an Elise just confirmed what I felt in the M5 steering. It's weird.

I have air suspension in my 2014 7 series, nothing gets comfier than that, heavy as a tank, and beefy tires on top but that car is so connected to the road and provides good feedback (not e36,46 kind but at least 60-70%) through steering. Newer 340i is all over the road, no connection even though it is lighter at 3900lbs and has a smaller body.

[Maxlude]

I believe the M5CS doesn't have the driving assistant plus stuff like lane departure even as an option. They have most likely been to remove the hardware from the steering rack too that vibrates etc. This surely would make the steering more pure.
I also have an E90 and yes the steering on the F90 Comp was very strange at first. And the steering wheel felt too thick. Even weirder with all the lane departure warning set on.
As soon as you turn that stuff off, it's better.
Still not as good as a good old hydraulic rack but remember it is a largish exec car with a sporting gait, not an M2/3/4. Btw, the best hydraulic steering I've ever felt was on my Honda prelude 2.2VTi with 4WS.

[Andy4114]

Originally Posted by Maxlude

I believe the M5CS doesn't have the driving assistant plus stuff like lane departure even as an option. They have most likely been to remove the hardware from the steering rack too that vibrates etc. This surely would make the steering more pure.
I also have an E90 and yes the steering on the F90 Comp was very strange at first. And the steering wheel felt too thick. Even weirder with all the lane departure warning set on.
As soon as you turn that stuff off, it's better.
Still not as good as a good old hydraulic rack. Btw, the best hydraulic steering I've ever felt was on my Honda prelude 2.2VTi with 4WS.

Fat steering wheel is introduced to partly offset the numb feeling of the electronic steering. I personally don’t like fat steering wheel in a performance coupe/sedan. Also the added fake weight in sports mode tries to mimic a true steering. I am sure BMW will address this soon, because Audi and Mercedes seem to do better in steering accuracy in which BMW aced once. How can it be an ultimate driving machine if the steering is sleeping? Not to mention the M badge. And yes it is weird for an M or non M car.

Cars are getting heavy on tech, less on driving dynamics, and yes if there is dynamic driving that also is handled by software. Might as well let the software track the car also for me while I lay asleep on massaging seats in the ultimate driving machine as it takes a super fast nurburgring lap.

Too much computer interference is a recipe for disaster. Boeing had to accommodate new fuel efficient engines in their fleet to stay competitive with Airbus. The 737 max didn't have enough ground clearance with newer bigger engines so they placed the engines higher than normal and developed in flight software to automatically nose down the plane in case it climbed too aggressively due to improper placement. Engineers took a short cut to let the software handle the nose instead of making structural changes/build entire new plane to accommodate bigger engine. The flight system software back fired and killed 300+ innocent souls in two plane crashes within 5 months. In both cases, pilots failed to keep the nose up because the damn software kept on pulling the plane down, and eventually caused it to go in a dive. Imagine the feeling of those pilots who failed to control that thing manually due to massive computer interference, same is the new technologies in cars, they don’t help a good driver but just interrupt and distract their driving. I will never buy something where computer is doing the driving. How can you hand over your life to a stupid software? Just like Tesla sleeper crashed into a stopped car at 60miles an hour bcos the sensor couldn't identify a stationary object. I know they don't recommend sleeping on the wheel, but come on they expect the driver to brake manually when required, hilarious. Why put that death trap in first place?

Agreed on Honda prelude steering, it was awesome, owned one myself.

[Maxlude]

I work in the software industry.
I can tell you that if can, I will never let my car drive itself.
Only exception is say if I am too ill and I want it to take me to emergency!

[Tuner1]

Originally Posted by irablumberg

Completely agree regarding the difference in tires.

From the specs BMW has published, I think the CS is 7mm lower than the base M5, but has the same ride height as the LCI Comp. I also have not seen anything suggesting that the front suspension differs between the CS and the LCI Comp given that both appear to be derived from the M8 GC. Finally, I think the wheels on the CS weigh the same as the forged wheels on the Comp and the carbon brakes are the same for both models as well. Thus, not sure there is any difference in unsprung / rotating mass.

All of this raises the questions this thread asks, how different is the steering feel between the CS and Comp in reality and what accounts for it?

I have wondered the same thing about the 2021+ LCI Comp and CS chassis differences. Ultimately I believe the cars are mechanically identical and the perceived difference (improvement?) in the CS is due to the lower vehicle weight, firmer and more supportive seats, stickier tires with more responsive construction and, in BMW's own words, the CS "...receives further spring and Dynamic Damper Control tuning over the M5 Competition..."

An LCI Comp will never feel quite as sharp and dynamic as a CS due to the Comp's heavier curb weight and softer seats, but installing P Zero Corsa tires (or similar -- Sport Cup 2), along with CS damper and steering coding on a Comp would likely get you about 90% of the way to the feel of a CS and 99% of the measurable performance.

BMWGroup.com USA 27.01.2021 Press Release

Chassis tuning

The M5 CS builds on the very high dynamic abilities of the M5 Competition Package’s chassis and suspension tuning. This means stiffer engine mounts (5,139 lb/in vs. 3,312 lb/in) than the standard M5 Sedan, 10% firmer springs, 0.2-inch lower ride height, increased front negative camber, a firmer rear anti-roll bar and tow-link ball-joint mounts. The M5 CS receives further spring and Dynamic Damper Control tuning over the M5 Competition to take advantage of the lower vehicle weight and of the optionally available (no-cost) Pirelli P Zero Corsa high-performance tires.

[Rossocorsa]

Is it a doable thing to get the cs steering coding in a comp?

Originally Posted by Tuner1

I have wondered the same thing about the 2021+ LCI Comp and CS chassis differences. Ultimately I believe the cars are mechanically identical and the perceived difference (improvement?) in the CS is due to the lower vehicle weight, firmer and more supportive seats, stickier tires with more responsive construction and, in BMW's own words, the CS "...receives further spring and Dynamic Damper Control tuning over the M5 Competition..."

An LCI Comp will never feel quite as sharp and dynamic as a CS due to the Comp's heavier curb weight and softer seats, but installing P Zero Corsa tires (or similar -- Sport Cup 2), along with CS damper and steering coding on a Comp would likely get you about 90% of the way to the feel of a CS and 99% of the measurable performance.

[Sneaky Pete]

Originally Posted by MNoob

When I first drove the M5 I thought the steering felt weird. Something about it is artificial and contrived. Like a computer game sending fake feedback from bad algorithms. After buying a lotus elise, it feels more pronounced. It's not just that the M5 is numb, there's something weird about it. Based on driving the two cars back to back, which I do often, it's not just at the limit where it can be felt. If the CS makes even a small dent in fixing the steering feel, that car would be so much more rewarding to drive.

Lets face it, comparing an M5 to sports cars from the past is not going to show the M5 in a good light.
Don't get me wrong, I really love my M5 but the steering is pretty numb compared to say an 1980ies 911.
And why would it not be, the 911 would be nearly half the weight, no power steering, relatively skinny tyres and not a lot of weight over the front tyres.

The M5 is a fabulous car, you can go 4 up for long distances, drag rubbish to the tip, go shopping, park anywhere and then out drag pretty much any car you are ever likely to come across.
Whats its not going to do is feel sharp and pointy on turn in.

[AP]

With all of the timing options out there, I’m genuinely surprised that no one )to my knowledge) has offered the possibility of tuning the steering , well the software side of it.

Why not?

The steering feel is such a large component of driving, it the one control that you are constantly using .

[M5_1of400]

Originally Posted by brad65ford

You and watch the difference of the steering wheel movement between the two.

ohhh the bird hitting that windshield at 3:58 is brutal..

Reminds me this Robocop scene