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      06-20-2021, 03:51 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by stealth70mde View Post
The speakers needs quite a bit of breaking-in.
Also, the mid-bass speakers in the doors are too weak and they will easily distort.
To circumvent that, you need to cut a lot of the 200Hz region in the EQ.
You end up having a weird EQ visually where it looks like you’re over boosting the 100Hz and the 500Hz region but it solves the distortion problem.

I also adjust my EQ so it sounds proper at highways speeds (mostly for bass). This means that in my driveway or at slow speeds it becomes somewhat boomy but I’m okay with that compromise.
My left front door speaker distorts so I will give this a go, what I found helps the overall sound if to mute the treble a bit, especially with the surround mode.

Another thing, why do the rear door speakers only work when the surround mode is on. I thought it was a fault with my car and asked the dealer who themselves thought it odd but after checking with BMW it appears to be perfectly normal.
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      06-20-2021, 05:19 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by subterFUSE View Post
The door speakers are midranges. I would guess they have an Fs value of 200 Hz or higher, which means they should be crossed over no lower than 400 Hz with a 24 dB slope.
Fixed mid-bass for midrange in my post. You are right, thank you.
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      06-20-2021, 08:30 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subterFUSE View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth70mde View Post
The speakers needs quite a bit of breaking-in.
Also, the mid-bass speakers in the doors are too weak and they will easily distort.
To circumvent that, you need to cut a lot of the 200Hz region in the EQ.
You end up having a weird EQ visually where it looks like you're over boosting the 100Hz and the 500Hz region but it solves the distortion problem.

I also adjust my EQ so it sounds proper at highways speeds (mostly for bass). This means that in my driveway or at slow speeds it becomes somewhat boomy but I'm okay with that compromise.
The door speakers are midranges. I would guess they have an Fs value of 200 Hz or higher, which means they should be crossed over no lower than 400 Hz with a 24 dB slope.
Mine is awesome. I've no idea what you're talking about. But it wasn't always that way to my ear. Bloozeman below helped me tweak it.

bloozemanAZ for some audiophile input.
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      06-20-2021, 10:17 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subterFUSE View Post
The door speakers are midranges. I would guess they have an Fs value of 200 Hz or higher, which means they should be crossed over no lower than 400 Hz with a 24 dB slope.
Are you referring to the H&K or B&W? If B&W then yes, they are midranges but as far as I can tell (having owned several speakers from their 800 series) they are likely a 4" variant based on the 805 D3s considering the Diamond branding and at that they can easily support 150 Hz or less. Case-in-point as although for my core audio system I kicked B&W to the curb (along with many many others) from a speaker perspective I do have a pair of 805 D3s providing 3rd zone sound in the master bedroom and their 6" drivers (along with the port vent) deliver amazing bass with a 34 Hz bottom end.
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      06-20-2021, 10:20 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth70mde View Post
The speakers needs quite a bit of breaking-in.
Also, the midrange speakers in the doors are too weak and they will easily distort.
To circumvent that, you need to cut a lot of the 200Hz region in the EQ.
You end up having a weird EQ visually where it looks like you’re over boosting the 100Hz and the 500Hz region but it solves the distortion problem.

I also adjust my EQ so it sounds proper at highways speeds (mostly for bass). This means that in my driveway or at slow speeds it becomes somewhat boomy but I’m okay with that compromise.
H&K or B&W? I can't get the B&W speakers in my M850i coupe to distort even at 75% volume which is ear shattering within the cabin space.
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      06-20-2021, 10:28 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by subterFUSE View Post
It is not possible to tune the B&W properly because there are no independent speaker delays. The speakers are out of phase at the listening position. Without delays, that can't be resolved.
This may be an issue with the cabin size in a M5 but in the 8-series coupe it is non-existent. Then again I'm guessing that the M5 cabin size is near equivalent to a M8 GC with the same speaker layout and that is not an issue for limeypride .

The 3 crossovers driving the B&W audio in my M850i perform flawlessly and frankly my only bitch is I cannot turn off the surround processing to listen to the glorious 5.1 FLAC sources I have on the 1TB SSD in the center console in their native mix. That said although my "gut" was to go with the "studio" setting which works great at lower volumes the "concert" setting reigns king once the sound opens up at 40% plus.

Last edited by bloozemanAZ; 06-20-2021 at 10:35 PM..
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      06-20-2021, 10:37 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by BRCHP View Post
THIS.

Although I'd say there isn't anything "not good" about it. Even with both systems completely powered down, the b&w just looks 100x better

Curious as to where you have yours configured at. I've messed with the various sound types (studio, theater, concert, etc.)
Ah the irony as on the 8-series forum when people ask for advice regarding the stock H&K vs the B&W upgrade my vote (especially when leasing) regardless of whether an audiophile or not the B&W is the clear winner from aesthetics alone.
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      06-20-2021, 10:49 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Fantastic 5 View Post
The B&W is excellent but it lacks bass to fill out the sound especially at speed. I listen to hard rock and metal and strong bass isn't required. Still it needs that little bit of thrust that lets you feel the bass in your chest.
If I had $5K for every post that stated the B&W does not deliver amazing bass I'd have enough cash stashed to pay off the residual on my M850i when the lease is up. I listen to the gamut but my go to is hard rock and metal. One thing to keep in mind is source is king and if that is Sirius/XM the compression, etc. can become a factor.

That said I experience solid bass from Ozzy's Boneyard but not every track is equivalent. Light up the FLAC on my SSD in the console and it is nothing but amazing bass once the system is dialed in. Accept's Balls To The Wall is just that given the bass is flat out amazing and you can feel it no questions asked. One needs to keep in mind that there is a difference between tight accurate bass vs a LFE type of bass. I'm not going to say that the B&W in the 850i can even come close to my home audio (a heavily optioned M550i price wise easy) but for a car audio system it is indeed amazing.
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      06-21-2021, 06:02 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by footie View Post
Another thing, why do the rear door speakers only work when the surround mode is on. I thought it was a fault with my car and asked the dealer who themselves thought it odd but after checking with BMW it appears to be perfectly normal.

Speaking from the aftermarket audiophile perspective, this is actually the correct way to do rear fill.

Stereo recordings are intended to be played back on 2 channel systems. When you have a good 2 channel system that is set up in a controlled environment, the 2 channel recording will create a coherent field of sound in front of you. It's like having a performing stage in front of you with the signer at the center, and the various instruments flanking them to the left, right or even behind them. A good system can fool your brain into thinking the performance is right there in front of you. You can close your eyes and point your finger to the different performers because it sounds so real.

Putting speakers behind you while listening to a 2-channel recording destroys that "stage in front of you" effect, unless those rear speakers have been processed in such a way that they do not confuse your ears/brain as to the perceived location of the sound origin.

Some tricks we use are to combine the left and right channel signals while inverting one side, and also by delaying the rear speakers so the sound arrives to your ears later than the sound from the front speakers. We refer to the combining of the left/right signals with one side inverted as "differential mixing." Doing this causes any sounds that would normally be played in the center of the soundstage (like a vocalist) to be cancelled out, while sounds that were mixed to the extreme left or right sides of the soundstage will still be heard. And adding delays will trick our brain into localizing the sound origin as being in front of us, and the rear speakers will be perceived as a reverberation. When done correctly, the rear speakers can add a sense of space to the presentation without diminishing the solid front soundstage that the recording engineer intended for us to hear.

I do not know whether or not the B&W or HK systems are using differential rear fill or not, but if they have the rear speakers only working as surrounds that make me think they are using some processing to create the reverb effect while attempting to keep the primary focus on keeping the presentation in front of the listeners.
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      06-21-2021, 06:10 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shellbmb View Post
I'm no audiophile, but like someone mentioned, there are no options for room correction. Wouldn't it be cool if you could introduce something like Audyssey in the car!! It's standard now with most home receivers. Would be cool.
We do have room correction options for the aftermarket audio market.
I am running Dirac Live in my system in the Mercedes S63.

Actually running 2 separate Dirac processors from miniDSP in my car.

A CDSP 8x12DL and a DDRC-22D.

The CDSP is built for car audio, while the DDRC is a home unit that I converted to 12 volt.


I am able to do active crossovers and individual speaker Dirac corrections in the CDSP, and then I have the DDRC in front of the CDSP and use it to do a 2 channel Dirac correction for the final tune. The results are outstanding. Dirac makes the boundaries of the car disappear, and it sounds like you are listening in a much larger space.
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      06-21-2021, 06:49 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bloozemanAZ View Post
H&K or B&W? I can't get the B&W speakers in my M850i coupe to distort even at 75% volume which is ear shattering within the cabin space.
HK.

Only the door midrange speakers distort at a surprisingly low volume when using a “typical” EQ curve. I’s say distortion starts between 40-50% volume.

Also, I rarely use the Logic7 option but it works okay for some songs.

If I remember well, I didn’t have to fiddle with the 200Hz region in my 2016 F80.
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      06-22-2021, 10:01 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth70mde View Post
HK.

Only the door midrange speakers distort at a surprisingly low volume when using a “typical” EQ curve. I’s say distortion starts between 40-50% volume.

What is a "typical" EQ curve?

Are you using any EQ boost? Or just cuts?
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      06-22-2021, 08:33 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth70mde View Post
HK.

Only the door midrange speakers distort at a surprisingly low volume when using a “typical” EQ curve. I’s say distortion starts between 40-50% volume.

Also, I rarely use the Logic7 option but it works okay for some songs.

If I remember well, I didn’t have to fiddle with the 200Hz region in my 2016 F80.
Perhaps something has indeed changed with the H&K as vs the abysmal "stock" audio for my wife's 2017 I paid the $900 for the H&K in it which I thought was a reasonable price after doing some FLAC demoing in one on the lot. They didn't have any X5s on the lot with the B&O option but given the cost along with the fact it isn't my daily driver I didn't roll the dice without an audition.

Logic7 has been off in it since day 2 when I spent the time to dial in the system to the best of its abilities. It's no where in the league of the B&W in my M850i but of course the cabin size is also a major factor as well. For the most part it does a good job and does not have any of the distortion being reported with the new H&Ks on this thread.
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      06-22-2021, 08:38 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by shellbmb View Post
Sorry, that's what I was referring to as well. We have a model 3 and I really like the sound system too. Forgot on a BMW forum M3 could mean something else. Haha.
Interesting on the Model 3 as on my short list was a Model S P100D with Ludicrous Speed. I used my reference set of songs in hirez FLAC to test out the sound system in the Model S and wasn't as impressed as the B&W in the 8-series nor the Mark Levinson in the LC 500. Given the smaller cabin of the Model 3 it may be the sweet spot or further improvements/refinements from the audio in the 2019 Model S I demo'd.
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      06-22-2021, 09:27 PM   #37
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Bloozeman - I listen to the same music you do. Please either post or PM me your settings. I am eager to hear what you hear!
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      06-22-2021, 09:55 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subterFUSE View Post
What is a "typical" EQ curve?

Are you using any EQ boost? Or just cuts?
I mean by typical is the "smiley" EQ curve, although very subjective.

I used quite a bit of boost in the 100HZ (+4 to5), cut in the 200HZ (-5 to 6), and +3 to 4 boost again in the 500HZ. Then pretty flat from that point with a slight boost for 2kHz and 10kHz. I'm pretty sensitive to hight frequencies so I boost that part very slightly.

I would have to take a picture of my setup, that would be easier. I'm not even sure that I wrote the right frequencies of the EQ above although I should be close to them...
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      06-23-2021, 08:41 AM   #39
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EQ boost will cause distortion to occur at lower volume levels than it will when left flat. Cuts are generally preferred over boosts. This is particularly important with modern recordings that have been compressed/limited to achieve loudness. There just is not much headroom to work with on many recordings.
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      06-23-2021, 12:11 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subterFUSE View Post
Speaking from the aftermarket audiophile perspective, this is actually the correct way to do rear fill.

Stereo recordings are intended to be played back on 2 channel systems. When you have a good 2 channel system that is set up in a controlled environment, the 2 channel recording will create a coherent field of sound in front of you. It's like having a performing stage in front of you with the signer at the center, and the various instruments flanking them to the left, right or even behind them. A good system can fool your brain into thinking the performance is right there in front of you. You can close your eyes and point your finger to the different performers because it sounds so real.

Putting speakers behind you while listening to a 2-channel recording destroys that "stage in front of you" effect, unless those rear speakers have been processed in such a way that they do not confuse your ears/brain as to the perceived location of the sound origin.

Some tricks we use are to combine the left and right channel signals while inverting one side, and also by delaying the rear speakers so the sound arrives to your ears later than the sound from the front speakers. We refer to the combining of the left/right signals with one side inverted as "differential mixing." Doing this causes any sounds that would normally be played in the center of the soundstage (like a vocalist) to be cancelled out, while sounds that were mixed to the extreme left or right sides of the soundstage will still be heard. And adding delays will trick our brain into localizing the sound origin as being in front of us, and the rear speakers will be perceived as a reverberation. When done correctly, the rear speakers can add a sense of space to the presentation without diminishing the solid front soundstage that the recording engineer intended for us to hear.

I do not know whether or not the B&W or HK systems are using differential rear fill or not, but if they have the rear speakers only working as surrounds that make me think they are using some processing to create the reverb effect while attempting to keep the primary focus on keeping the presentation in front of the listeners.
I use to own a car audio business many, many years ago so I do get the point you are making regarding 2 channel audio but a car environment is completely different as you have more than just yourself or/and front passenger, to accommodate rear passengers it sounds so wrong in my opinion. Also it doesn’t actually have a good soundstage at all, depending on which front seat you sit in you predominantly hear from the speakers on that side which isn’t the case with the BMW system it’s soundstage is wider and more across the dashboard as it should be.

The way the HK system is setup without the HK surround and fader is in the central position the front doors are full volume, the rear doors are off and rear parcel shelf very low volume, with HK surround turned ON the rear doors are controlled by the effect slider but this doesn’t really give you much control at all. Maybe I’m in a minority but given a choice of this or the stock BMW system I would jump for the latter, it is probably one of the worst stereo upgrades I have had of all the cars I have owned in the last 10-12 years.

The only saving grace is I didn’t pay my hard earned money to get it as then I would have been properly p155ed.
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      06-25-2021, 03:19 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Fantastic 5 View Post
Bloozeman - I listen to the same music you do. Please either post or PM me your settings. I am eager to hear what you hear!
Happy to help but my 8-series coupe and your M5 have different cabin volume so our mileage may vary on the proper EQ settings. The OP on this G07 forum thread put together an excellent "how to" post on dialing in the B&W sound: https://g07.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...php?p=26766185. I'd suggest starting there and then I can help further with any questions, etc. Unlike the OP with a degree in acoustic and audio engineering I spent 10 years of a past life in touring rock and roll bands configuring the "mix" for every bar, hall, and large venues we played in. So once I read his post it absolutely resonated with me as its basically the same process I went through with just a few minor differences, e.g., I started with a flat EQ vs the smiley but you'll get where you need to be regardless.

FYI that the key is the source material so Sirius XM is out and you'll need at a minimum some MP3's on a thumbdrive but even they are compressed so ultimately you need high resolution source (FLAC is the best bet). If you do not have anything in the high resolution space you can buy an album or two that meets your musical taste from https://www.hdtracks.com/.

Last edited by bloozemanAZ; 06-25-2021 at 03:34 PM..
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      06-26-2021, 04:54 PM   #42
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Very cool…thanks…I have mine set to what I think is decent….I'll upload a pic of the EQ soon…sounds great in different genres….but Judas Priest shines…lol
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      06-27-2021, 08:14 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Fantastic 5 View Post
Very cool…thanks…I have mine set to what I think is decent….I'll upload a pic of the EQ soon…sounds great in different genres….but Judas Priest shines…lol
Ah the irony as I'm currently listening to Judas Priest's remaster British Steel album via Amazon Music's HD service on the back patio. The further irony is I'm testing out the new B&W Performance Series CCM684 in-ceiling speakers I installed this weekend as part of the ongoing patio remodeling.

I'm not a fan of in-ceiling (or in-wall) but the only way to make it work with the remodel was in-ceiling. Normally I never buy any audio gear without a few demo, etc. but there was just no way to do so in this case thus I had to rely on the published specs as well as some online reviews. Given their running off of a HEOS amp installed into my home theater audio cabinet with a 75 foot run easy of 16 gauge speaker wire they sound pretty good and easily get the job done after dialing the minimal EQ of the HEOS app (just bass and treble).
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      06-28-2021, 02:08 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by DHDCF View Post
What a big let down is the hk system in my 21 base m5. As an audiophile for past 35 years I have to say this is a complete let down. Hopefully when I order my next one BW makes up for the time I'm going to lose to sound mediocrity at best. I suspected this since more air space than my last M3/M4s but now living with it sucks. Complete let down. Sounded better on show room floor and yes. I knew would of course. But couldn't really crank up up now could I?

PS best system: was my 2010 E93
have you EQ'd the system? it's actually not that bad for a "base" system once you eq it. sounds even better with the windows up and the car off haha

https://f90.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1668758
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