HELP! 17 X5M with 52k miles Complete Engine Failure

[Bankerbry]

Well another week has gone by and nothing has happened, and our X5M continues to sit at the back of the service lot!.
Now the warranty company is refusing to pay for the labor and also the turbo's that the dealer says needs to be replaced due to oil starvation. The warranty company will only pay $15k for the used engine. We received the history of the used engine and it came out a X5M that was in a major accident where it rolled several times and sustained $90k of damage! (any thoughts on this?)
The dealer has dug their heels in and are refusing to take any responsibility and have been clear that they have no desire to attempt to make things right. They have agreed to take the vehicle back in on trade once the repairs are complete. They will not provide a loaner, or do anything else to help with our situation.
I have spoken with several individuals who have expressed emphatically that the dealer's insurance company should be paying every dime of this repair. The cause of the failure has been verified by BMWNA and also an Independent service center and we have documents proving the dealer performed this service with the wrong oil. The dealer is refusing to file a claim.
My wife and I are at a complete loss of words here, I have never experienced such BS and lack integrity or service in my life. My wife has been crying, and can't understand why it's so hard for any company to do the right thing! We have lost all faith in this bullsh*t world!
No matter what decision we may make we are going to be stuck with at least a $10k+ bill and at the very least a used engine that was pulled out of a vehicle with over $90k in damage!
I've already paid a $600 service bill and will need to rent a car again for probably the next couple of weeks.
I think our only option left is to seek legal action against the dealership, which really would have been our last resort. What a sad pathetic set of circumstances.
Sorry to vent guys!

[bmwx5er]

This is ugly and frankly quite pathetic from the selling dealer. Time to lawyer up and threaten to share your experience in social media. Someone earlier suggested going to an influential local media person - is that an option? I'm sorry that you're going through this.

[Blue By You]

Originally Posted by edycol

Motul specific LL01 FE is pretty stout. HTHS is 3.4cp which is on the verge of LL01 minimum HTHS of 3.5.
But, SAPS byproduct is, as far as I remember, 1.42%. That is ridiculous SAPS byproduct. More SAPS, more CBU. I personally think anything above 1.2% is too high for DI engines. BMW obviously thinks it is ok as it is approved oil, but still.
If warranty is still on, yes. Otherwise, LL01 is what to go or pretty much any oil that has MB229.5 approval.
IMO, Castrol Edge 0W40 is best bang for a buck. PAO based, stout HTHS, excellent cold pumpabilitiy, really good Noack for 0W40 oil.

Sounds like you know a lot more about oil than I ever will. I do see some discrepancies though, especially when it comes to ester oils being good or bad, Castrol Edge 0W40 being recommended as a good oil, etc.

As far as I can tell, the Castrol 0W40 has a flash point of 408F which is extremely low/no good according to one of my indies who recommends a high flash point (I've seen 440-464 from the oils I've recommended or used). And it has a Noack value of 9.1 from what I gleaned in a few posts floating around, which is good/no better than for instance the Red Line 0W30 (which has an HTHS of 3.4, Noack value of 9, flash point of 446 even back in 2018 - can't find what it is today, and is beyond the MB approval you recommended) Castrol Edge 0W40 spec sheet from 2019 - https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/7B9337CEA39CEBFB802584C6007D7CE6/$File/bpxe-bjlw36.pdf

I realize there are so many thoughts and opinions of oils. But based on what I read the Red Line and Motul Specific do seem to be on par with each other when it comes to specs for FE oils. (My M specifies FE and that's what I have been using thus far. If tuned and/or doing some track days this year, maybe bump it to the Motul Sport 5W40 or something like it.)

Not to change your opinion about the Red Line, but maybe it has changed since you last evaluated it - here is the latest spec sheet from Red Line if you're interested.

https://www.redlineoil.com/Content/f..._INFO_2020.pdf

[Blue By You]

Originally Posted by Bankerbry

Well another week has gone by and nothing has happened, and our X5M continues to sit at the back of the service lot!.
Now the warranty company is refusing to pay for the labor and also the turbo's that the dealer says needs to be replaced due to oil starvation. The warranty company will only pay $15k for the used engine. We received the history of the used engine and it came out a X5M that was in a major accident where it rolled several times and sustained $90k of damage! (any thoughts on this?)
The dealer has dig there heels in and are refusing to take any responsibility and have been clear that they have no desire to attempt to make things right. They have agreed to take the vehicle back in on trade once the repairs are complete. They will not provide a loaner, or do anything else to help with our situation.
I have spoken with several individuals who have expressed emphatically that the dealer's insurance company should be paying every dime of this repair. The cause of the failure has been verified by BMWNA and also an Independent service center and we have documents proving the dealer performed this service with the wrong oil. The dealer is refusing to file a claim.
My wife and I are at a complete loss of words here, I have never experienced such BS and lack integrity or service in my life. My wife has been crying, and can't understand why it's so hard for any company to do the right thing! We have lost all faith in this bullsh*t world!
No matter what decision we may make we are going to be stuck with at least a $10k+ bill and at the very least a used engine that was pulled out of a vehicle with over $90k in damage!
I've already paid a $600 service bill and will need to rent a car again for probably the next couple of weeks.
I think our only option left is to seek legal action against the dealership, which really would have been our last resort. What a sad pathetic set of circumstances.
Sorry to vent guys!

It's already late in the process to get an attorney involved. But now is the time IMO.

Time to send a Priority Mail package to the pertinent executives at BMW NA as well as the executives at your dealership and the servicing dealership. Because everyone should be bowing at your feet and offering whatever they can do to help you.

I don't understand $90K worth of damage, because the vehicle should have been totaled even if it was brand new and worth all the money. So can you explain that?

Will the dealer credit your full purchase price and expenses toward a new F95? Just a thought.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by Blue By You

Sounds like you know a lot more about oil than I ever will. I do see some discrepancies though, especially when it comes to ester oils being good or bad, Castrol Edge 0W40 being recommended as a good oil, etc.

As far as I can tell, the Castrol 0W40 has a flash point of 408F which is extremely low/no good according to one of my indies who recommends a high flash point (I've seen 440-464 from the oils I've recommended or used). And it has a Noack value of 9.1 from what I gleaned in a few posts floating around, which is good/no better than for instance the Red Line 0W30 (which has an HTHS of 3.4, Noack value of 9, flash point of 446 even back in 2018 - can't find what it is today, and is beyond the MB approval you recommended) Castrol Edge 0W40 spec sheet from 2019 - https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/F...584C6007D7CE6/$File/bpxe-bjlw36.pdf

I realize there are so many thoughts and opinions of oils. But based on what I read the Red Line and Motul Specific do seem to be on par with each other when it comes to specs for FE oils. (My M specifies FE and that's what I have been using thus far. If tuned and/or doing some track days this year, maybe bump it to the Motul Sport 5W40 or something like it.)

Not to change your opinion about the Red Line, but maybe it has changed since you last evaluated it - here is the latest spec sheet from Red Line if you're interested.

https://www.redlineoil.com/Content/f..._INFO_2020.pdf

Castrol uses different ASTM. Castrol uses D93 and most blenders use D92 to determine flash point. If you send it to the Blackstone you will see flash point of fresh 0W40 at 445.
Flash point is nit that important. It varies based on additives. Most LL04 oils will have higher flash point bcs. less metallic additives.
As for Noack, 9% for 0W40 is exceptional value. Think about it like this: if you have two oils from same base stock (good example are Castrol 0W30 and 0W40), one with less spread between XW and XX will have lower Noack. So 0W30 (which I think is still best European oil, just expensive) is 8.1%. 0W40 is 9.1%. Both values are excellent.
Now, Redline 0W30 is again, high oxidation oil. You really have to keep OCI in check. It is semi racing oil. Don't get me wrong, I like their products. I have their D4 in my manual gearbox in E90, I have their 75W90 in my minivan's transfer case and rear differential. But, their performance series has specific use.
Also, your manual says both LL01 and LL01 FE. Redline is not approved oil for any manufacturer (their professional series is, but that is repackaged Kendall). So not sure why you going Redline 0W30? What really, really matters in an engine with such hot turbos is High Temperature-High Shear (HTHS). It is resistance of oil to temporary or permanent loss of viscosity. Perfect HTHS for S63 would be 3.6-4. HTHS is all about keeping your bearings away from other stuff, having enough viscosity to lubricate pistons rings, turbo bearings etc. You don't want to go too crazy on this too.
So, if you want Redline, go 5W30. Low KV100, HTHS of 3.7. Just changed at 5k at most.

Again, about flash point. Here is my UOA of Castrol 0W40 (with 47 laps at High Plains Raceway) and on the right side Castrol 0W30 during winter use. Look flash point after 5k.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by Blue By You

It's already late in the process to get an attorney involved. But now is the time IMO.

Time to send a Priority Mail package to the pertinent executives at BMW NA as well as the executives at your dealership and the servicing dealership. Because everyone should be bowing at your feet and offering whatever they can do to help you.

I don't understand $90K worth of damage, because the vehicle should have been totaled even if it was brand new and worth all the money. So can you explain that?

Will the dealer credit your full purchase price and expenses toward a new F95? Just a thought.

I also vote for lawyers. They are giving run around bcs. OP didn't lawyer up.
Legally, dealership screwed up using wrong oil. It doesn't matter that I highly doubt that is the cause, legally they messed up. And lawyers will cling on that same like BMW NA is.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by slow_roll

What's your opinion/TLDR on Liqui Moly Leichtlauf 5W40? I agreed that Castrol Edge 0W40 is the best bang for the buck. I ran my tuned 2012 Audi S4 with Castrol from new car to 140K before selling with zero oil consumption or engine issues.

Average.
IMO Valvoline European Vehicle 5W40 that is approved for LL01 is better stuff and goes $22 in your local Wal Mart.
Actually that Valvoline is stout thing. I used their MST version in my X5 35d.
Fairly high HTHS of 3.7 and low KV100 of 13.1 indicates very good base stocks.

[Blue By You]

Originally Posted by edycol

Castrol uses different ASTM. Castrol uses D93 and most blenders use D92 to determine flash point. If you send it to the Blackstone you will see flash point of fresh 0W40 at 445.
Flash point is nit that important. It varies based on additives. Most LL04 oils will have higher flash point bcs. less metallic additives.
As for Noack, 9% for 0W40 is exceptional value. Think about it like this: if you have two oils from same base stock (good example are Castrol 0W30 and 0W40), one with less spread between XW and XX will have lower Noack. So 0W30 (which I think is still best European oil, just expensive) is 8.1%. 0W40 is 9.1%. Both values are excellent.
Now, Redline 0W30 is again, high oxidation oil. You really have to keep OCI in check. It is semi racing oil. Don't get me wrong, I like their products. I have their D4 in my manual gearbox in E90, I have their 75W90 in my minivan's transfer case and rear differential. But, their performance series has specific use.
Also, your manual says both LL01 and LL01 FE. Redline is not approved oil for any manufacturer (their professional series is, but that is repackaged Kendall). So not sure why you going Redline 0W30? What really, really matters in an engine with such hot turbos is High Temperature-High Shear (HTHS). It is resistance of oil to temporary or permanent loss of viscosity. Perfect HTHS for S63 would be 3.6-4. HTHS is all about keeping your bearings away from other stuff, having enough viscosity to lubricate pistons rings, turbo bearings etc. You don't want to go too crazy on this too.
So, if you want Redline, go 5W30. Low KV100, HTHS of 3.7. Just changed at 5k at most.

Again, about flash point. Here is my UOA of Castrol 0W40 (with 47 laps at High Plains Raceway) and on the right side Castrol 0W30 during winter use. Look flash point after 5k.

Thank you for that information. I love learning about this stuff, to a point!

My manual only specifies LL01-FE, not LL01. Not in the on board computer and not in the paperback manual. And not in the online users manual when I type in my VIN. No idea why, but it only says when necessary that I can add up to 1 quart of certain kinds with LL01 being one of the options. It's an FE engine and I wish it wasn't even for the psychological value of using other oils...

Funny you mention the Red Line 5W30, I was checking that out because of the 3.7 HTHS which might better especially during the warmer months.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by Blue By You

Thank you for that information. I love learning about this stuff, to a point!

My manual only specifies LL01-FE, not LL01. Not in the on board computer and not in the paperback manual. And not in the online users manual when I type in my VIN. No idea why, but it only says when necessary that I can add up to 1 quart of certain kinds with LL01 being one of the options. It's an FE engine and I wish it wasn't even for the psychological value of using other oils...

Funny you mention the Red Line 5W30, I was checking that out because of the 3.7 HTHS which might better especially during the warmer months.

If you are out of warranty, forget FE. BMW probably got 1mpg bump from EPA moving to FE.
Another reason why BMW uses FE is that many owners of these SUV's are using it to get groceries, take kids to daycare. That means a lot of short trips where oil cannot reach operating temperature. In that case, thinner stuff is better! Rule about engines and oils is: as thin as possible and as thick as necessary!
If you are driving 5mls to work and back, yeah FE stuff is probably better.
But if you are driving like S63 should be, forget FE. If you are under warranty, Redline won't cut it. It is not approved. Motul specific is way to go IMO.

[slow_roll]

Originally Posted by edycol

Average.
IMO Valvoline European Vehicle 5W40 that is approved for LL01 is better stuff and goes $22 in your local Wal Mart.
Actually that Valvoline is stout thing. I used their MST version in my X5 35d.
Fairly high HTHS of 3.7 and low KV100 of 13.1 indicates very good base stocks.

Thanks! Will look into Valvoline next time

[Bankerbry]

Originally Posted by bmwx5er

This is ugly and frankly quite pathetic from the selling dealer. Time to lawyer up and threaten to share your experience in social media. Someone earlier suggested going to an influential local media person - is that an option? I'm sorry that you're going through this.

We feel that they have left us no choice! Yes, we will be retaining a lawyer on Monday, and have already spoken to a few.
I also think the social media and use of an influencer is a great idea. Regardless of my thoughts on this, it is a way to gets thing moving these days.
Thank you for the suggestion.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by slow_roll

Thanks! Will look into Valvoline next time

If you want to make an effort and find stuff, Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40 is also top notch stuff in category of Castrol 0W40, Mobil1 0W40 and approved for LL01. Advance Auto Parts and Auto Zone usually have it on sale for $33 for 5qt.

[Surgx5]

Originally Posted by Blue By You

It's already late in the process to get an attorney involved. But now is the time IMO.

Time to send a Priority Mail package to the pertinent executives at BMW NA as well as the executives at your dealership and the servicing dealership. Because everyone should be bowing at your feet and offering whatever they can do to help you.

I don't understand $90K worth of damage, because the vehicle should have been totaled even if it was brand new and worth all the money. So can you explain that?

Will the dealer credit your full purchase price and expenses toward a new F95? Just a thought.

$90k worth of damage can add up pretty quickly. My X5 was rear ended and it's costing over $30k to fix that plus ridiculous time waiting for parts and supplies.

Bankerbry I totally understand why you would be uneasy about getting a replacement engine from a wreck like that as well. Even if they offered a warranty on it-doubtful in my opinion, your best bet would be to get rid of the car but at the same time not take on any additional cost. That dealership's credibility is crap now and like many have said you need to lawyer up. Negligence on their part is valid and they provided the evidence themselves.

[Bankerbry]

I completely agree! The dealership was very quick to cast blame away from them, and actually provided us with all of the documentation that proved their negligence caused the engine failure.
Initially we were hopeful that they would do the right thing, and take care of their customer. Unfortunately they have decided the customer is not more important than their dollar.
No, they have refused to give us credit for the purchase price and now are back tracking away from doing anything for us. It looks like they are now taking the stance of buyer beware.
Extremely disappointing, and as an owner of 2 businesses I can't understand their position. There are decent dealerships out there who believe in taking care of their customers. Sill-Terhar is not one of them.

[blackoutF15]

@Bankerbry I feel your anger and disappointment. Sounds like seeking legal action is only hope to get fairness in this situation. Anytime getting lawyer involved, you are looking at additional expenses, time, energy and emotional investment without knowing what will the outcome be in the end. That being said, I'm not discouraging, I think you should seek for a lawyer who is willing to agree on terms that you will guaranteed financially not be impacted negatively than you had already. Meaning that if you don't win the lawyer doesn't get paid. The settlement will cover your loss and his fees. Sorry that you have to deal with this F up situation.

[blackoutF15]

Originally Posted by blackoutF15

@Bankerbry I feel your anger and disappointment. Sounds like seeking legal action is only hope to get fairness in this situation. Anytime getting lawyer involved, you are looking at additional expenses, time, energy and emotional investment without knowing what will the outcome be in the end. That being said, I'm not discouraging, I think you should seek for a lawyer who is willing to agree on terms that you will guaranteed financially not be impacted negatively than you had already. Meaning that if you don't win the lawyer doesn't get paid. The settlement will cover your loss and his fees. Sorry that you have to deal with this F up situation.

You have a strong case so I think you should be able to find a lawyer that would agree

[slow_roll]

Typical stealership tactics to intimidate and bully you into a settlement. Given the trail of evidence and paperwork, I would just lawyer up at this point and make sure you get every penny possible for time, headache, legal fees and full purchase price of the vehicle. Good luck Bankerbry

[Bankerbry]

Originally Posted by slow_roll

Typical stealership tactics to intimidate and bully you into a settlement. Given the trail of evidence and paperwork, I would just lawyer up at this point and make sure you get every penny possible for time, headache, legal fees and full purchase price of the vehicle. Good luck Bankerbry

Thank you! I agree, at this point the monetary portion is almost secondary. (Almost) Now I'm p*ssed, and I'll do what ever it takes to make them pay.

[Blue By You]

Originally Posted by Surgx5

$90k worth of damage can add up pretty quickly. My X5 was rear ended and it's costing over $30k to fix that plus ridiculous time waiting for parts and supplies.

Bankerbry I totally understand why you would be uneasy about getting a replacement engine from a wreck like that as well. Even if they offered a warranty on it-doubtful in my opinion, your best bet would be to get rid of the car but at the same time not take on any additional cost. That dealership's credibility is crap now and like many have said you need to lawyer up. Negligence on their part is valid and they provided the evidence themselves.

I hear you. My point was that they would normally total the vehicle for that much damage (in percentage of vehicle's value).

[Blue By You]

Originally Posted by edycol

If you are out of warranty, forget FE. BMW probably got 1mpg bump from EPA moving to FE.
Another reason why BMW uses FE is that many owners of these SUV's are using it to get groceries, take kids to daycare. That means a lot of short trips where oil cannot reach operating temperature. In that case, thinner stuff is better! Rule about engines and oils is: as thin as possible and as thick as necessary!
If you are driving 5mls to work and back, yeah FE stuff is probably better.
But if you are driving like S63 should be, forget FE. If you are under warranty, Redline won't cut it. It is not approved. Motul specific is way to go IMO.

Okay so I'm not under BMW factory or CPO any more. I am under an Allstate CPO Wrap. Does that matter?

I take care of my M but I drive it (after a full warmup to operating temp). And I'll be doing some track days in the nicer weather. That's why I liked the idea of the Motul Sport.

What is your silver bullet recommendation for me? Curious to know if you haven't already mentioned it, and if you did I apologize.

I also found the Motul 8100 X-MAX 0W-40 which seems great with LL01 approval and an HTHS of 3.6, seems like a silver bullet what do you think?

[edycol]

Originally Posted by Blue By You

Okay so I'm not under BMW factory or CPO any more. I am under an Allstate CPO Wrap. Does that matter?

I take care of my M but I drive it (after a full warmup to operating temp). And I'll be doing some track days in the nicer weather. That's why I liked the idea of the Motul Sport.

What is your silver bullet recommendation for me? Curious to know if you haven't already mentioned it, and if you did I apologize.

I also found the Motul 8100 X-MAX 0W-40 which seems great with LL01 approval and an HTHS of 3.6, seems like a silver bullet what do you think?

X-Max is not approved anymore. BMW excluded all 0WXX oils in LL01 and LL04 approvals since 2018.
Silver bullet with LL01 approval?in this order:
Motul X-Cess 5W40 GEN2
Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40
Valvoline European Vehicle 5W40

Without LL01:
Castrol Edge 0W40.
Mobil1 0W40FS.

[Blue By You]

Originally Posted by edycol

X-Max is not approved anymore. BMW excluded all 0WXX oils in LL01 and LL04 approvals since 2018.
Silver bullet with LL01 approval?in this order:
Motul X-Cess 5W40 GEN2
Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40
Valvoline European Vehicle 5W40

Without LL01:
Castrol Edge 0W40.
Mobil1 0W40FS.

My M is a 2017 so that's probably what's up with some of this FE bs...

I like that X-Cess 5W40 Gen2! You posted that up before, but I hadn't looked into it that deeply. That might have to be the go-to starting next oil change.

Thanks!