[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

I thought I did? I asked why would BMW approve it? It is at the sole discretion for BMW to approve any oil and is ruled by whatever internal mandate they have which can change at anytime without notice. In addition to this, modern oil recommendations are dictated by CARB/CAFE standards first and foremost Where would long term engine longevity rank on that list? 3rd, 5th, 10th? Moly has never been shown to help with enough with mileage or emissions to outweigh the additional cost.

If you are in doubt, please see the BMW recommend extended engine oil change intervals and the outright lie of never needing to change your transmission oil as further evidence as to where drive train life ranks on BMW (or any high end auto manufactures) list of priorities.

So again what is in for BMW if an oil or additive shows outstanding wear and engine life performance past 100k miles?

Now in the past this was more acceptable, however we are living in the last days of the V8. The latest rev of the S63 engine in the F90 will be one of the last ever made. IMHO the F90 will become a collectors item in the future because of this and extending the engines life is more important then ever. And even if you don't care about such things, the bonus is trade-in/resale values will go through the roof.

All of this is a moot point though if just straight oil is all that is needed as you indicated to reach well over 100k miles in high performance engines. I need to see some real life examples to believe that however as parsing the previous gen M5 & X5M forums & speaking to previous gen owners, as well as the absolute dismal resale values past 100K miles appears to indicate engines go BOOM in the 100-130k mile range with engine bearing failure. Almost like its working as intended....

Look, rolling eyes..

Liqui-Moly makes and oil, and an ADDITIVE to the oil.

Why not make TWO OILS? One that is BMW approved, and one that is not.

Then you take the guesswork out of it.

You are adding TWO cans of "additive". Why "additive"? Why not from Liqui-Moly "Hey, this is the one that is BMW approved, and this is the one that we recommend with the PROPER amount of additive we believe in".

That's the question. Any "roll eyes" speculation about that? Or just snarky "I thought I did" "roll eyes"

Shawn

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

Look, rolling eyes..

Liqui-Moly makes and oil, and an ADDITIVE to the oil.

Why not make TWO OILS? One that is BMW approved, and one that is not.

Then you take the guesswork out of it.

You are adding TWO cans of "additive". Why "additive"? Why not from Liqui-Moly "Hey, this is the one that is BMW approved, and this is the one that we recommend with the PROPER amount of additive we believe in".

That's the question. Any "roll eyes" speculation about that? Or just snarky "I thought I did" "roll eyes"

Shawn

Rolling eyes was not a dig at you, it was a dig at BMW (and all auto manufactures for that matter) for what happens to drive train after 100k miles due to manufactures not giving a damn. Bearing failure due to oil film breakdown is the single highest failure point in this engine family. Almost like its been carefully studied what is the thinnest, most emissions compliant and MPG friendly oil that will get the customer to 100K miles, what happens after that? Who cares! They need to buy the new model anyway. - Every Auto Manufacturer (All future EV battery packs will be based around the 100K model also, IT IS the magic number)

Again, LM does not decide if their oil is BMW approved or not, BMW does. LM did submit moly oil for LL01-FE approval and BMW did not approve it. Why? Only BMW knows. IMHO I suspect it is because yes it decreases long term wear but adds to emissions and does nothing significant for fuel mileage. In the end the hit to their CAFE standards was not worth it as once more, long term engine life is far down on the list.

Also I don't believe the high concentrations of Moly can stay suspended in oil for the years of shelf life oil must have. It is not perfect, I have noticed it starts to settle out around 3-4+ months of sitting in hot climates in oil I have drained. I would be hesitant to recommend Moly on any car that sits for many months at a time between uses. I believe this single factor is why it is not more widely adopted. However I will take its startup, HTHS bump, and LSPI protection over that inconvenience any day though.

I also believe it comes down to $$$$ like most things in this world, LM is set to make much more money selling an additive a 10+ dollars a pop then trying to bump up their oil another 10 dollars per 5 liters. Plus as mentioned above, High concentrations of Moly is not perfect for all situations.

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

I also believe it comes down to $$$$ like most things in this world, LM is set to make much more money selling an additive a 10+ dollars a pop then trying to bump up their oil another 10 dollars per 5 liters. Plus as mentioned above, High concentrations of Moly is not perfect for all situations.

Got it. Seemed to be you were rolling eyes at me. My apologies.

But HERE you answered the question. And, to be honest, THEY don't know what the right amount of Molybdenum is perfect. Lots of folks swear by it. Does it make a real difference? Not even LM seems to know.

It's this sort of factoid that "closes down" many oil threads on many sites. The data is.....weak. So many billion dollar companies and THEY can't even solve that problem. So many anecdotes. So little objective data.

If you're really really into it, pick an oil, stick with it, and do some long term oil analyses. Blackstone is fine for street driven cars, but if you're REALLY pushing it, you need filtergrams and microscopy.

Other than that, change the oil regularly, change the filters regularly, and that my friends, is the only objectively repeatable data that we have.

Shawn

[Maverik259]

What do y'all think of the LM Ceratec vs MoS2?

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by Maverik259

What do y'all think of the LM Ceratec vs MoS2?

You ask some TOUGH, TOUGH questions...

Hexagonal boron nitride.

Been used in Mobil-1 for some time. ALONG with Molybdenum Disulfide.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/th...16-voa.308972/

Might as well ask me who I'd rather sleep with, Cameron Diaz or Sigourney Weaver. Either would be GREAT. Together would be AWESOME.

I can't answer the question competently. Not enough data. But they both seem great to casual testing.

Shawn

[pbonsalb]

Ceratec is not something you add every oil change. It is high in calcium, which some theorize contributes to LSPI. I put some in about 15k miles ago. My engine has not blown up. But I won’t draw any conclusions….

I am not sure you need any of this stuff — fancy oil, additives and analyses. Using oil of the proper spec or very close to it, with 5000 mile changes, letting the car warm up before driving hard, and making sure you regularly drive far enough to get the oil hot enough to burn off contaminants are probably the most important things.

I started adding MOS2 when changing oil. Not yet sure whether I will use Ceratec again.

ZDDP is supposed to be good also.

[Maverik259]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

Ceratec is not something you add every oil change. It is high in calcium, which some theorize contributes to LSPI. I put some in about 15k miles ago. My engine has not blown up. But I won’t draw any conclusions….

I am not sure you need any of this stuff — fancy oil, additives and analyses. Using oil of the proper spec or very close to it, with 5000 mile changes, letting the car warm up before driving hard, and making sure you regularly drive far enough to get the oil hot enough to burn off contaminants are probably the most important things.

I started adding MOS2 when changing oil. Not yet sure whether I will use Ceratec again.

ZDDP is supposed to be good also.

Ya I was just curious due to the concern of MoS2 build up over time. I don't have a dog in the fight either way. Just looking for something to help my wife's X5 50i go the distance until we have a family large enough to get a X7. Approaching 80k on the X and she has been bullet proof thus far minus the oil consumption.

[pbonsalb]

I have heard about some S63 consuming oil. Met a guy recently with an X5M50i and he said he has to add at least a couple of quarts between changes.

Don’t know much about the N63 engine. Are there the usual oil consumption issues like PCV valves? Have they been changed? Does a thicker oil reduce consumption?

Does the S63 version not have issues due to different piston rings? Or some other part? My M5 uses no or next to no oil between changes.

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

I am not sure you need any of this stuff — fancy oil, additives and analyses. Using oil of the proper spec or very close to it, with 5000 mile changes, letting the car warm up before driving hard, and making sure you regularly drive far enough to get the oil hot enough to burn off contaminants are probably the most important things.

THIS. THIS. THIS. THIS.

Use a good oil and change it regularly. That's the only thing I've been able to prove with boutique oil and additives over and over and over.

When a guy who tracked his car REGULARLY and HARD showed as good an oil analysis to mine with straight Mobil-1 0W-40

Made me feel like I wasted a lot of time. And $$$

Shawn

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

Got it. Seemed to be you were rolling eyes at me. My apologies.

But HERE you answered the question. And, to be honest, THEY don't know what the right amount of Molybdenum is perfect. Lots of folks swear by it. Does it make a real difference? Not even LM seems to know.

It's this sort of factoid that "closes down" many oil threads on many sites. The data is.....weak. So many billion dollar companies and THEY can't even solve that problem. So many anecdotes. So little objective data.

If you're really really into it, pick an oil, stick with it, and do some long term oil analyses. Blackstone is fine for street driven cars, but if you're REALLY pushing it, you need filtergrams and microscopy.

Other than that, change the oil regularly, change the filters regularly, and that my friends, is the only objectively repeatable data that we have.

Shawn

Oh I dunno about that, LM knows, they state it right on the bottle: One can per 5 liters so I use two. Seems to be doing the job. Don't see to many n63/s63's over 180k miles and still pumping 600+hp. In fact do you see much of any high performance engines pushing 150hp+ liter past 180k miles? You said you knew of plenty of people on Bob's that are doing it, please send me links as I would LOVE to save the 20 plus extra dollars the molly additive costs me every oil change if this is just snake oil and some real life examples would help me ignore the science behind Moly and mark it up as marketing hype. BUT I really need to see those examples so please provide them when you have a chance.

I believe the bottom line is Moly is only worth it in extreme conditions, otherwise just pain oil changes is fine. Now pushing 600+hp in 5300bs in 120+ AZ heat on a 10 year old high mileage engine is pretty friggen extreme if you ask me. As is a F90 loaded with work colleagues so your now tipping the sales at 5000+ pounds and decide to romp on it on the freeway onramp to wake them up a bit... Luck favors the prepared no?

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by Maverik259

What do y'all think of the LM Ceratec vs MoS2?

I've used it twice so far, your supposed to use it every 30k miles or so (not with moly at the same time though). It is very disturbing to pour into your engine though, it looks like orange julius. I thought I got a bad batch until I looked it up and found that is just what it looks like. Can't say anything good or bad about it as unlike the moly additive which has an immediate effect on the valve train noises, Ceratec was unnoticeable. If you drive your car like a normal human, there is supposed to be a small mileage bump after using it. I can't comment on that with my heavy right foot

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

I have heard about some S63 consuming oil. Met a guy recently with an X5M50i and he said he has to add at least a couple of quarts between changes.

Don’t know much about the N63 engine. Are there the usual oil consumption issues like PCV valves? Have they been changed? Does a thicker oil reduce consumption?

Does the S63 version not have issues due to different piston rings? Or some other part? My M5 uses no or next to no oil between changes.

S63 is essentially a tweaked and tuned N63 and they share between 90-95% of the same parts depending on the version. Usually the S63 gets forged pistons, additional oil sprayers, revised oil pump, extra cooling pathways in the heads and different exhaust cams. Many differences outside the engine too such as different turbos, intercoolers, upper intakes, etc.

Oil usage has always been an issue on the n63 no matter what the year and the basis for the class action lawsuits for the original N63 & N63-TU. It is due to valve steam seals, the s63 uses the same valve stem seals and piston rings as the n63. If fact the rod bearings, piston rings, & valve stem seals have remained common to all version of the n63 & s63 from the original to the TU3.

The reason why the s63 usually fares better is simply because of the grocery getter status of most 50i's vs M's & the M usually has better cooling due to additional heat exchangers. Idling in the summer heat for extended periods of time while waiting for the kids/running errands in combination with the n63's reduced performance cooling and intake design, created the perfect storm to bake the piss out of your valve stem seals. But if you go back in time to previous gens, you will fine s63's start to have valve stem seal issues as they get close to 100k also, it depends greatly on how the car was driven (city or highway). It remains to be seen if this will follow into the F90. Looking how tight the engine compartment is buttoned up, I would imagine it will as these cars age. One of the BEST things you can do to extend your cars life is simply open the hood when you park at night (assuming your in a secure garage). Your engines plastic/rubber bits and your wallet will thank you later.

I was burning a liter every 500 miles until I changed my valve stem seals (replaced them 50k miles ago around 130k miles. Now at over 180k miles I use 1 liter per 5000 mile oil change if I drive the piss out of like I normally do. Silly 200 dollar rubber parts that take 50+ plus hours to replace...Fun stuff. It is why BMW decided to just replace the engines instead of tying up techs for a week replacing the seals.

You didn't say what year his 50i was, the original (like mine) had an incredibly complex two-stage CCV system that was notorious for failing. Luckily beginning in with the TU, BMW greatly simplified things so its much easier to service. So assuming he has TU or newer, its pretty easy to work on and you are correct and he should check his CCV tubes to make sure there are no leaks or clogs, then do a compression or leak down test. If everything checks out, the most likely the valve stem seals are toast.

[pbonsalb]

This guy is not mechanically inclined. I think the X5 is about 6 years old and at around 100k miles. It is his wife’s car. I told him to trade it in on an X5 40i. He drives a 535d and has no issues with that.

[Danny D]

I had a E90 N54 FBO tuned making about 450/450 on the dyno
I drove that car for 12 years since 2007, and floored it everyday like I stole it.
Made me smile.

I had zero problems with the engine. even before I sold it at 238,000 KM.
All I did was change the oil every about 6,000KM.
they only oil I hated and would burn was the OEM bmw as I would have to top up around 3k in (500ml). Redline & Moly I never had to. So that was my expiernce.
I also walnut blasted my valves every 30 K. ( that helps).

Guess who bought the car ---- my Indy shop, one of his mechanics.

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

Oh I dunno about that, LM knows, they state it right on the bottle: One can per 5 liters so I use two. Seems to be doing the job. Don't see to many n63/s63's over 180k miles and still pumping 600+hp. In fact do you see much of any high performance engines pushing 150hp+ liter past 180k miles? You said you knew of plenty of people on Bob's that are doing it, please send me links as I would LOVE to save the 20 plus extra dollars the molly additive costs me every oil change if this is just snake oil and some real life examples would help me ignore the science behind Moly and mark it up as marketing hype. BUT I really need to see those examples so please provide them when you have a chance.

I believe the bottom line is Moly is only worth it in extreme conditions, otherwise just pain oil changes is fine. Now pushing 600+hp in 5300bs in 120+ AZ heat on a 10 year old high mileage engine is pretty friggen extreme if you ask me. As is a F90 loaded with work colleagues so your now tipping the sales at 5000+ pounds and decide to romp on it on the freeway onramp to wake them up a bit... Luck favors the prepared no?

I've looked back on bobistheoilguy for my old peak days. (2009-2014), and I can't find those threads anymore. The shakeup at NAGTROC (becoming GTR-Life after being sold), and conversion over to GTRHeritage lost a lot of content.

I can't find them, but they were there. Track cars, just changing regularly with Mobil-1, or LiquiMoly (mostly the BMW guys), and Redline. Some Royal Purple. No additives (but then again, 10 year ago oil was different than current formulas, especially euro).

I don't expect you to buy it, since I can't show it. But you can't show objective data for the "doping" of good top tier oil either with a bunch of cans of ceratek or moly either. N=1 doesn't solve it.

Shawn

[Danny D]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

Oh I dunno about that, LM knows, they state it right on the bottle: One can per 5 liters so I use two. Seems to be doing the job. Don't see to many n63/s63's over 180k miles and still pumping 600+hp. In fact do you see much of any high performance engines pushing 150hp+ liter past 180k miles? You said you knew of plenty of people on Bob's that are doing it, please send me links as I would LOVE to save the 20 plus extra dollars the molly additive costs me every oil change if this is just snake oil and some real life examples would help me ignore the science behind Moly and mark it up as marketing hype. BUT I really need to see those examples so please provide them when you have a chance.

I believe the bottom line is Moly is only worth it in extreme conditions, otherwise just pain oil changes is fine. Now pushing 600+hp in 5300bs in 120+ AZ heat on a 10 year old high mileage engine is pretty friggen extreme if you ask me. As is a F90 loaded with work colleagues so your now tipping the sales at 5000+ pounds and decide to romp on it on the freeway onramp to wake them up a bit... Luck favors the prepared no?

Cough -

I fail to see the logic here horsepower does not matter, as the engine will see and rev at the same RPM.?
As well as with load in your last paragraph.?

Care to explain ?

[PDOT]

How often are guys who track their car changing oil?

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by PDOT

How often are guys who track their car changing oil?

Most, probably way too often. Traditional knowledge is always after two track events.

Multiple oil analyses suggest this is too much, unless you are using "race" oil. Race oil lacks some additives that stabilize it over time, and make it perform well after a certain amount of "break in" and then it performs and absorbs acids and soot during its life, where it's best performing during this time, until the additive package is consumed. Race oils don't have to perform this function. You change oil, go race, come home, drain and refill.

If you use "street" oil (cause you ain't REALLY a racecar), changes that frequently may actually increase abrasiveness in the oil, cause you aren't ever "breaking it in", and you're putting back in additives designed to stabilize the oil after long use.

The best approach, probably, is to drain the street oil before an event, change to a race oil, and after the event, go back to the street oil. This is, of course, ridiculously expensive and labor intensive and difficult. Nobody does it. Everybody does some sort of compromise solution, unless they're pros.

Shawn

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by Danny D

I had a E90 N54 FBO tuned making about 450/450 on the dyno
I drove that car for 12 years since 2007, and floored it everyday like I stole it.
Made me smile.

I had zero problems with the engine. even before I sold it at 238,000 KM.
All I did was change the oil every about 6,000KM.
they only oil I hated and would burn was the OEM bmw as I would have to top up around 3k in (500ml). Redline & Moly I never had to. So that was my expiernce.
I also walnut blasted my valves every 30 K. ( that helps).

Guess who bought the car ---- my Indy shop, one of his mechanics.

Not a direct comparison. For one you are 40k mile shy, two its a N54, one of BMW's best, known for its longevity when pushed, three your 2000lbs lighter. Your car has little in common other then the hp per liter then a n63/s63 powered 5300lb suv.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by Danny D

Cough -

I fail to see the logic here horsepower does not matter, as the engine will see and rev at the same RPM.?
As well as with load in your last paragraph.?

Care to explain ?

Wait what? Its late so maybe I am not understanding this correctly, but are you saying that horsepower and torque loads don't matter to oil choice and engine longevity and only rpm does? I suggest you read up on how hydrodynamic bearings work and the forces that effect them.

Load on the oil film in the hydrodynamic crankshaft & rod bearings from combustion (or pre-ignition) is the single largest force imposed on the oil in any ICE and what our entire discussion here is about. The torque load against this (due to vehicle weight) is part of this equation. Yes rpm effects this but it is not factor at rpm range the engines we are discussing here operate in. You are incorrect that horsepower & load is not a factor.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

I've looked back on bobistheoilguy for my old peak days. (2009-2014), and I can't find those threads anymore. The shakeup at NAGTROC (becoming GTR-Life after being sold), and conversion over to GTRHeritage lost a lot of content.

I can't find them, but they were there. Track cars, just changing regularly with Mobil-1, or LiquiMoly (mostly the BMW guys), and Redline. Some Royal Purple. No additives (but then again, 10 year ago oil was different than current formulas, especially euro).

I don't expect you to buy it, since I can't show it. But you can't show objective data for the "doping" of good top tier oil either with a bunch of cans of ceratek or moly either. N=1 doesn't solve it.

Shawn

Agreed, one single data point doesn't solve it and I am serious about what I said. If there is data out there for forced induction engines pushing heavy vehicles past 180k miles and still pumping 150hp a liter then it would be clear that moly really isnt needed.

But in the absence of this data I have to look at the facts:

- The s63/n63 platform is not known for going past 120k miles
- bearing failure is the single largest cause for catastrophic engine failure
- LSPI appears to play a factor , especially on tuned engines.
- Valve stem seals are an issue with this platform, leading to excessive oil consumption, which increases the chance of LSPI events.

Looking at this data, I decided long ago to research what would help prevent oil film breakdown during LPSI not to mention I wanted to make a "sleeper" out of my X5 and knew pushing 600+hp was going to take it to its limit, especially with first gen cast pistons.

After doing the research, I landed on Mos2 as being the most promising additive. Again I don't think its the end all be all but I do believe the science behind it and that it can help protect bearings surfaces during moderate LSPI events (I say moderate as once you start bending rods, well nothing is going to help here short of a set of Carillio's)

[916_M5]

Sorry to revive an old thread. But does any one have any experience with Motul Sport oil with Ester on our F90? And if so which weight did you use?