[CajunBMW]

Originally Posted by gangzoom

Luckily the UK is tiny in comparison especially if you live in the middle of it!! 150 miles covers most of England for us.

Great example. I think the same idea holds well for folks in the North East part of the US. From DC to Boston would be a great place as there will be plenty of chargers available.

Now where I live they are making inroads. Our Medical School is at the intersection of two major highways (an E-W and a N-S highway). That plus all of the faculty that have now purchased Tesla's has allowed Tesla to set up an 8 supercharger station at the mall right next door to our school. So you can park the car, plug it in, walk to work and come back when done. Plus with the intersection of the two highways it also provides a pretty good stop off point to go west to Dallas TX (about 180-200 miles away), east to Jackson, MS (~225 miles) and at least a good ways to New Orleans (about 300 miles or so) or north to Little Rock Arkansas (about 200). With time some of the places in between will fill in making these trips more convenient with an EV.

I think if they could get the range to the 400+ mile mark, it would be an easier sell for many folks here.

[JD6]

Originally Posted by gangzoom

Luckily the UK is tiny in comparison especially if you live in the middle of it!! 150 miles covers most of England for us.

Yes but the downside of being able to reach most of England is that you have live in the Midlands!

[pmgreenwood]

I do think EV's can actually work in the UK if you do not stray too far from the main Motorway network. I regularly go to Mid Wales and North Norfolk and even Tesla has not yet provided fast chargers nearby although one planned for Aberystwyth. So even with a Tesla, your choice of overnight hotels becomes restricted as you need to choose one with a Tesla destination charger and to date only one of the country pubs I regularly stay at has such.

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by JD6

Yes but the downside of being able to reach most of England is that you have live in the Midlands!

Who needs Messi when you have Vardy, and a true fact, Birmingham has more canals than Venice, and the Walkers factory can rival anything out of silicon valley.........

......though Northampton is otherwise known as the town you drive past to get to London .

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by JD6

Yes but the downside of being able to reach most of England is that you have live in the Midlands!

Now I dont live in the (north east) midlands I really miss being able to get to all parts of the country easily. And a former colleague who lived where Leicestershire meets the west mids says the same now she lives in the arse end of the lake district and it takes forever to go and see the family...

Peak District - all the joys of the country side and still in touch with all of civilisation. Its the future....

[gangzoom]

Shell have just raised their price for EV charging its now 41p/kWh, even Tesla Superchargers are 35p/kWh. So adding 50kWh for 150 miles of range will cost £15-20.

That may seem OK to you guys still use to paying petrol pump prices, but I pay £0 for Superchargers and at home 50kWh of electricity is £5.

Seems like public EV refueling prices are quickly heading towards parity with petrol prices, only you do need to spend more time filling up.

The disparity is ofcourse everyone HAS to fill up at a petrol station for the same cost, but if you have home charging you can refuel your EV for 1/4 the cost and almost more importantly for zero time wasted because you simply plug in to refuel overnight when the car is parked up.

Unless someone somehow solves this issue, EVs will massively increase the wealth gap for personal transportation, which cannot be a good thing for society as a whole.

[JustChris]

£20 for 150 is .... closing in on petrol prices. Cars like my M235i were a 50L tank and range 340 miles. Cost to fill was about £65

Very very approx but electric there is only 2/3 the price of the crushed dinosaur fuel! Hmmm.

Absolutely has to be home charging at 4p kWh rates otherwise all the other vast compromises are simply not worth it.

Still far too early for me.

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by JustChris

Still far too early for me.

I've taken the other approach, I think I've had about £14K in new EV grants, got 3 home chargers fitted at 3 different address for free, and a home electricity bill so odd my electricity supplier have given up trying to 'predict' our usage.

The current EV is £0 VED free (that will surely change soon), 'Free for life' Supercharging (which has now stopped), and got a 'free' £10K worth home battery fitted by Tesla, £4k worth of 21inch alloys, and some other stuff as part of their old referral scheme which has now stopped.

The alternative back in 2016 when we bought the Tesla would have been an F10 M5. Given the Tesla has lost around £25K in depreciation over 4 years + running costs of sub 5p/mile including fuel + tyres + servicing, am quite happy I jumped on the bandwagon early. Despite the crazy up front asking price purely £££ wise its been far cheaper than buying an equivalent combustion 2ton + barge capable of doing sub 5 second 0-60 times.

In the longterm EV motoring costs have to be similar to combustion cars for the sake of economics of the nation, but right now (just about) there is still decent incentives.

I do keep on hoping BMW would actually make a new M car that doesn't look like a whale shark with braces, with an EV you don't need a grill, but BMW designers probably see it an opportunity to make the grill even bigger

[Grant_7]

Originally Posted by pmgreenwood

Go and watch some of the youtube videos on a channel like ShortCircuit

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpZ...IHfM6YmDxXDnvA

I admit a Tesla has battery pre-warming when it knows it is on the way to a Supercharger, but that is not common, and even the likes of a Taycan with very quick charging take on the initial 20 % and last 20% at a far slower rate than their fastest capability. Basically if doing more than "20 to 80" operation your stops will be longer than 20 mins, never mind operating outside "20 to 80" has an impact on battery life

I can only speak of my experience, which is actually owning and driving an EV for the last year and 10k miles. I've never stopped at a Supercharger for more than 20 mins EVER, including some long round-trips. The car has always been ready before I am, so there's never been any inconvenience whatsoever.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by Grant_7

I can only speak of my experience, which is actually owning and driving an EV for the last year and 10k miles. I've never stopped at a Supercharger for more than 20 mins EVER, including some long round-trips. The car has always been ready before I am, so there's never been any inconvenience whatsoever.

Not particularly aimed at the person you are replying to, and no offence intended to anyone, but it always seems that the people that most fear EV range and blandness are those that have never owned and driven respectively.

There's a similar body of expertise around the LR ownership and reliability experience

[JD6]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

Not particularly aimed at the person you are replying to, and no offence intended to anyone, but it always seems that the people that most fear EV range and blandness are those that have never owned and driven respectively.

There's a similar body of expertise around the LR ownership and reliability experience

Having an 11 year old son compels me to visit Tesla dealers at least a couple of times a year so he can have a play and set the seat sensors of every car to 'fart cushion' - to the thinly-veiled annoyance of the salespeople

So I have some idea of how the cars feel and have test driven a Model S, and 3 other EVs. I imagine most here have driven at least one EV.

I take your point though and I notice that very few people ever seem to revert to the dark side once they have an EV. Presumably that tells us something. My greatest concern is the charger network for non-Tesla EVs. It does appear to be a bit of a shambles and even level-headed chaps like Harry Metcalfe make that point very well. I think a 45e PHEV may well be the stepping stone until it's been sorted out. I should add that I'm a mountain person - I live in the Lakes, outside the EV range circle posted before.

I struggle with Tesla though. For me the build quality is at the Kia/Mazda level. Perfectly functional, but I don't wish to pay £70k for a fast Mazda 6, even if fuel is going to be cheaper!

My son certainly sees the appeal of Tesla, so perhaps I'm just a dinosaur...

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by JD6

Having an 11 year old son compels me to visit Tesla dealers at least a couple of times a year so he can have a play and set the seat sensors of every car to 'fart cushion' - to the thinly-veiled annoyance of the salespeople

So I have some idea of how the cars feel and have test driven a Model S, and 3 other EVs. I imagine most here have driven at least one EV.

I take your point though and I notice that very few people ever seem to revert to the dark side once they have an EV. Presumably that tells us something. My greatest concern is the charger network for non-Tesla EVs. It does appear to be a bit of a shambles and even level-headed chaps like Harry Metcalfe make that point very well. I think a 45e PHEV may well be the stepping stone until it's been sorted out. I should add that I'm a mountain person - I live in the Lakes, outside the EV range circle posted before.

I struggle with Tesla though. For me the build quality is at the Kia/Mazda level. Perfectly functional, but I don't wish to pay £70k for a fast Mazda 6, even if fuel is going to be cheaper!

My son certainly sees the appeal of Tesla, so perhaps I'm just a dinosaur...

Agree with most of that. I think there is a major difference between 'doesn't fit my circumstances' and 'not fit for [anyone's] purpose'. The latter often appears to be the message, when it's patently not true.

I'm with you completely on the interior quality at Model S/X prices. It was too big an issue for me to overlook, not just against what I bought but I think I placed the Model X 5th for my requirements. Most of that deficit was in the interior. None was in the drivetrain.

Range was marginal for me too, as at that time I was pretty much monthly to Heathrow. 100 miles there, leave for a few days, 100 miles back. And a car with a 200 mile range. Even with superchargers at "my" hotel, I knew how much I valued the convenience of stepping off a flight and driving straight home. Could have charged while I had a pint on the outbound stay, but that plan was no good on those occasions where I took later flights and stayed in short stay parking, not the hotel. Just goes to show how one niche use case can make or break. Had I lived 80 miles from the airport, perfect. Had I lived 150 miles away, I'd have valued the leg stretch - especially after a Singapore flight.

[CajunBMW]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

Not particularly aimed at the person you are replying to, and no offence intended to anyone, but it always seems that the people that most fear EV range and blandness are those that have never owned and driven respectively.

There's a similar body of expertise around the LR ownership and reliability experience

That is a good point. Don't you think some of the issues are just human nature. What I mean is, there are early adopters of new technology or even new things and they do this willingly and are generally happy with those decisions. There are those that recognize the benefit of the new ideas and technologies, but wait a bit as the second in line to get these things. There are those that are not against anything, but need to see if the neighbor or friend likes it first. There are probably the plain pragmatic folks that like to just do research and see what happens and how things work with reviews, reports, etc and the there are the naysayers. Obviously this could be further decided.

I see this with phones, cars, EVs, TVs, other electronic things, and more. I realize of course that the cost difference between a phone and EV are different and pragmatically one can adopt a new phone before an EV, but I was thinking a broad terms.

Heck the CoV vaccine and the discussions we have had on the other thread and can read in all of the various news reports seem to show these varied responses.

Cheers,

[CajunBMW]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

Agree with most of that. I think there is a major difference between 'doesn't fit my circumstances' and 'not fit for [anyone's] purpose'. The latter often appears to be the message, when it's patently not true.

I'm with you completely on the interior quality at Model S/X prices. It was too big an issue for me to overlook, not just against what I bought but I think I placed the Model X 5th for my requirements. Most of that deficit was in the interior. None was in the drivetrain.

Range was marginal for me too, as at that time I was pretty much monthly to Heathrow. 100 miles there, leave for a few days, 100 miles back. And a car with a 200 mile range. Even with superchargers at "my" hotel, I knew how much I valued the convenience of stepping off a flight and driving straight home. Could have charged while I had a pint on the outbound stay, but that plan was no good on those occasions where I took later flights and stayed in short stay parking, not the hotel. Just goes to show how one niche use case can make or break. Had I lived 80 miles from the airport, perfect. Had I lived 150 miles away, I'd have valued the leg stretch - especially after a Singapore flight.

Your first point above makes a lot of sense. I think a lot of folks over here like the idea and would buy EVs, but are waiting to see if the infrastructure and pluses and minuses of an EV fit into their life style and needs right now. I really feel that many will change and buy as time goes on and in some case availability increases. We bought a van for example in the pandemic last year because our other van had major repair bills and it made no sense to me to spend a lot to fix an older vehicle, when I could trade it in and put the repair money right into a big down payment. I would have bought a hybrid van if there were any available at that time. We got the top of the line one since no one here wanted to pay for all of the bells and whistles and we got a great deal, but it is still a gas powered vehicle. For us this works because of the great distances we drive, but....with time these will change and I think many places will accept the need to place chargers at hotels, along the highways, etc.

Now I admit I am sold on a car that has ludicrous speed built in.....all I can think of is the movie with the character Dark Helmet!!!!

[Witney]

Originally Posted by gangzoom

Shell have just raised their price for EV charging its now 41p/kWh, even Tesla Superchargers are 35p/kWh. So adding 50kWh for 150 miles of range will cost £15-20.

That may seem OK to you guys still use to paying petrol pump prices, but I pay £0 for Superchargers and at home 50kWh of electricity is £5.

Seems like public EV refueling prices are quickly heading towards parity with petrol prices, only you do need to spend more time filling up.

The disparity is ofcourse everyone HAS to fill up at a petrol station for the same cost, but if you have home charging you can refuel your EV for 1/4 the cost and almost more importantly for zero time wasted because you simply plug in to refuel overnight when the car is parked up.

Unless someone somehow solves this issue, EVs will massively increase the wealth gap for personal transportation, which cannot be a good thing for society as a whole.

The high cost of charging away from home was a key factor in my decision to go PHEV at this time. After looking at the numbers, the admittedly inefficient petrol engine, is no more expensive than charging. So unless the elec is free for a long stop beyond the elec range I will not bother with any chargers.

Plus the charge rate is abysmally slow, some say to discourage PHEV drivers blocking the charge stations which are essential for BEVS.

[pmgreenwood]

I thought about a PHEV but the petrol tank gets reduced so when on holiday away from home without easy charging, the car's range becomes unattractive to me. I decided 2 years ago to buy one last large capacity petrol vehicle for holidays away from home and a small ev for local shopping trips. Bought the former, then the pandemic arrived; and having two cars at present for 40 miles a week seemed excessive, so the small EV hatch yet to be purchased

[DougMcL]

Originally Posted by JD6

I struggle with Tesla though. For me the build quality is at the Kia/Mazda level.

Yes Tesla's build quality is pretty awful. If you sit in a new Mazda 3 you might find that the build quality has surpassed both BMW and Audi. I was surprised.

[JD6]

Originally Posted by DougMcL

Yes Tesla's build quality is pretty awful. If you sit in a new Mazda 3 you might find that the build quality has surpassed both BMW and Audi. I was surprised.

My dad has a current model Mazda 3 - he bought it new and it's now around 3 years old. To me the build quality is perfectly acceptable at the price, but still below my old F30 BMW, let alone the much improved G20 3 Series.

I have only sat in one Tesla Model 3 - an early LHD car soon after it arrived at a Tesla showroom in Edinburgh (I assume it was yet to be launched in RHD), but I was very disappointed by the build quality. It was even a pretty big step down from a Model S. It is possible that they have improved since then. I had a quiet chat with the Tesla staff about the Model 3 build quality and they were instantly on the defensive - I suspect I wasn't the first one to comment that day...

[KRS_SN]

for 3 years I have had various journeys in my friend's model s multiple times. poverty interior easy scratch plastic and by year 3 the rattles from the rear suspension made me feel it was like a Citroën taxi not an 80k car.
The model 3 at 40k? (not sure) I guess is an acceptable(non luxury) option for the money considering that a lot of(well off)people's lifestyle and requirements are met.(haven't sat in one no desire yet to do so).

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

Not particularly aimed at the person you are replying to, and no offence intended to anyone, but it always seems that the people that most fear EV range and blandness are those that have never owned and driven respectively.

There's a similar body of expertise around the LR ownership and reliability experience

A fear of inconvenience and being stranded may be a common factor

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

A fear of inconvenience and being stranded may be a common factor

Which, if true, you think would be evidenced by EV owners returning to combustion due to being stranded or inconvenienced. Whereas what we hear is "it's no problem".

The returnees to other brands that I have seen have mainly been for quality or luxury type reasons. Mainly Tesla owners, simply because they've been the majority of the market. Now other brands are playing, and volumes are up, perhaps we will see a change.

[KRS_SN]

@MashinBenzin
I was in the model s once when the charge nearly ran out and we had a delayed of 40 minutes to stop at a sports centre to get some juice but had to wait because the charger was occupied. One could argue it could have happened with an ice vehicle but petrol stations are ubiquitous and takes 3 minutes.
From that day on I've not set foot inside that car/an EV.
He plans to buy another EV when lease ends. Getting home 40 minutes late missing the Time with family for me is worth the extra cost in ICE (for now future may be different in 7 years with better batteries or drive in wireless charging pads no cables etc ?). ). But Its not that we can buy ICE so many EV buyers may not even have an option to go back.
I may be going off topic here as it was an audi v tesla discussion so won't dilute the chat anymore.