[AngryInch]

The M5 in stock form is not overly powerful. Add E30, down pipes and a tune, now we have some power. (For the weight of it)

My 63 year old Mother drives a 69 Pontiac with 800hp… no joke lol. No Nannie’s there. You have to respect the car and learn to drive it. If you’re constantly driving with ESP on, you’ll never learn to handle the vehicle.

Our local drift guys would have drift practice. It was $30 and a set of rear tires. I used to go out there in a C63, in a controlled environment and let it rip. You’d quickly gain a lot of feel for the car, it was excellent practice.

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by Hammer110!

I would imagine most on here have not experienced euro MDM which in my experience is night and day to US spec MDM. I’m not sure why all the comments on “not safe” to run in 2WD mode though? My lightly breathed on F10 gets run in Euro MDM mode, DSC off for both M1 & M2 modes just maxed out shift and dampening settings on the M1 mode. Other than the wife’s M50i X7 I’ve never owned a 4 wheel drive BMW although I plan to order a F90 through Dan Knight once the world goes right side up and all currently non available options become re-available.

F80 M3 and F10 M5 can’t put the power down under as many circumstances as the F90 M5. Sure, good tires, good road, good weather they do fine. But take any of those away and those cars are losing time over where they would be with AWD. That is why I love AWD for big power, especially performance oriented AWD like in the F90 where it will automatically run in RWD unless and until AWD is needed. It’s fun spinning and sliding — I have been doing it for 30 years, but I don’t feel the need very often in this big heavy luxury sports sled.

Sure traction control and RWD can work well, but no way is it as fast as AWD in a straight line. On a track in ideal conditions, maybe. There are probably some guys who have run an F90 in AWD and RWD around tracks and posted the time differences.

And of course, enjoying your car is not all about maximum speed. If you prefer RWD and reducing speed when necessary below what you might achieve with AWD, that is fine. But then I might ask why you bought an AWD car. If I preferred RWD, I would probably have bought a CTS-V or Blackwing or whatever they are called now.

[AngryInch]

The car actually drives nicer in 2wd. Switch it and you can feel the front end and wheel smooth out. Not sure why, but I can notice it in mine.

M5 is way faster in AWD for sure. Under 100kmh and heavy on the gas, these cars really do move good for the size of them.

[Spunky]

Originally Posted by redcarrera

I live in the country & spend most of my time in the mountains & canyons, or highways without much other traffic to deal with.....it's all on me not to f##k up.

We discussed this in another thread and I drive primarily in 2WD - if I'm not on the freeway with lane keeping on... Car feels way better and is very, very predictable, once you spend some time playing with and understanding the rear diff.

[brava09]

Originally Posted by Aronis

I think there may be something to the statement above, that this car is all RWD until there is slippage. Today I was driving in MDM mode with snow tires with good tread life, 33 degrees, clear roads, coasting down from 55 mph road to an exit ramp I have taken 1000 times. See video. I drove my '03 RS6 for 15 years and never had this happen. I have another video, have to dig it up, of a similar slippage driving the M5 (at least that was during a snow storm on black ice) Today it was on clear roads with a spec of something on the road at this slip point. I have found after 4 winters with this car that the AWD in BMW's (particular the M5) is not nearly as good in the winter as my prior Audi's ( '00 A6 sport, '03 RS6, '08 A4 cab, '13 A8L, '15 Q7) all of which I drove in all sorts of bad snowy conditions. Shit my '16 M2 with snows did not do this to me LMAO. And I have yet to push this M5 on ramps as fast as I have gone in the RS6 in DRY weather. Just saying.....not to bash BMW, but their AWD electronic gadgetry is NOTHING compared to Audi's all mechanical setup.

To add to the discussion re: RWD, I no longer put this car in 2wd mode, ever. BMW should be ashamed that they offer that mode with NO traction control option. WTF? They clearly could have that mode with nannies and without. The without has no practical use especially with 600 plus hp on tap. Find my crash thread, not a fan of RWD mode.

That's why the Audi's are so much slower than the M5, because of their awd mechanical setup.

I love the M xdrive setup, and for treacherous conditions like in your video don't use MDM, what's the point?

[SenorFunkyPants]

The nannies on or nannies off is an interesting discussion.
I think the car I enjoyed owning the most, was an 89 5speed 2wd 911 turbo.
A 1200kg car with no traction/stability control or ABS....with raised boost giving a steep power curve and lowered uprated suspension, it was a joy to drive.
But the concentration required to keep it out of the scenery when pushing was quite exhausting. In the end I just had to sell it...in the certain knowledge that sooner or later, with a moments inattention, it would all go tits up.

Last summer on warm dry roads I drove my F90 M5 in 2wd and to be honest I can't say it felt any different to 4wd...and why would it, without inducing rear slip, its in rwd in any case.
Now its winter the Mxdrive really pays it way.

[Spunky]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Last summer on warm dry roads I drove my F90 M5 in 2wd and to be honest I can't say it felt any different to 4wd...and why would it, without inducing rear slip, its in rwd in any case.
Now its winter the Mxdrive really pays it way.

Steering feels way better and you sense it immediately after switching to 2WD. In 4WD, no matter if itÂ’s in MDM or not, you feel the pull from torque going to the front wheels and it is constant - it goes into 2WD above 112 mph and in reverse

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by Spunky

Steering feels way better and you sense it immediately after switching to 2WD. In 4WD, no matter if itÂ’s in MDM or not, you feel the pull from torque going to the front wheels and it is constant - it goes into 2WD above 112 mph and in reverse

Maybe USA cars are set up differently...in my car in AWD I can only feel the transition from RWD to AWD (through the steering as torque steer) when pushing the car very hard on warm dry tyres....or much more easily on low grip surfaces (cold wet etc) when slip at the rear wheels is simpler to provoke.

[Aronis]

Originally Posted by brava09

That's why the Audi's are so much slower than the M5, because of their awd mechanical setup.

I love the M xdrive setup, and for treacherous conditions like in your video don't use MDM, what's the point?

Oh, sooo much slower, really? Jesus man in real world you don't notice a tenth of a second to 60......My M5 is much much faster than my GTS off the line, but the GTS is much more fun to drive......and the Audi AWD advantage in weather is clearly worth the 'loss' to 60......go race an RS6 in the snow......

Mike

[pbonsalb]

Most of us aren’t racing in the snow, but I understand Audi has been in the performance AWD business a lot longer and should have the edge. M5 is a lot faster than the RS6 and RS7 — 5+ mph in the quarter mile is no joke. M5 will drive right on by the Audi. But if all you do is 0-60, then it is just a few tenths and whoever gets the jump probably wins.

[brava09]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

Most of us aren’t racing in the snow, but I understand Audi has been in the performance AWD business a lot longer and should have the edge. M5 is a lot faster than the RS6 and RS7 — 5+ mph in the quarter mile is no joke. M5 will drive right on by the Audi. But if all you do is 0-60, then it is just a few tenths and whoever gets the jump probably wins.

RS6 is slower than M3 xdrive, actually it struggles against the M340.

[italiabrain]

Originally Posted by Spunky

Steering feels way better and you sense it immediately after switching to 2WD. In 4WD, no matter if itÂ’s in MDM or not, you feel the pull from torque going to the front wheels and it is constant - it goes into 2WD above 112 mph and in reverse

How is there a difference in steering feel immediately and constantly between 2WD and MDM if the front axle spends most of its time unengaged even in 4WD modes. I get that it feels different once it starts to slip the rears and feed the fronts, but how does it feel different before then? Sounds like RWD purist placebo.

[AngryInch]

Originally Posted by italiabrain

How is there a difference in steering feel immediately and constantly between 2WD and MDM if the front axle spends most of its time unengaged even in 4WD modes. I get that it feels different once it starts to slip the rears and feed the fronts, but how does it feel different before then? Sounds like RWD purist placebo.

It’s not, it’s a fact, go try it for yourself.

Even my Denali duramax feels heavier in the wheel when I click auto 4wd which operates on the same principle. I think it might lock in the front axles perhaps. I’d have to read on it. I know the clutch engages in the transfer case, but there might be something else at play.

But it could just be you don’t have the touch. Some guys are just more in tune with their machines. Like Nicky Lauda said in Rush, he was born with a great ass!

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by italiabrain

How is there a difference in steering feel immediately and constantly between 2WD and MDM if the front axle spends most of its time unengaged even in 4WD modes. I get that it feels different once it starts to slip the rears and feed the fronts, but how does it feel different before then? Sounds like RWD purist placebo.

Indeed....There seems to be a general misunderstanding about how the Mxdrive works.
You can download a manual here:
https://f90.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1510506

Page 82
Which explains that the front axle is only engaged when the rear axle is at its traction limit.
So switching between 2WD and AWD will not produce a change in steering feel unless the rear axle is losing traction.

[Spunky]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Indeed....There seems to be a general misunderstanding about how the Mxdrive works.
You can download a manual here:

Actually, there seems to be a general lack of knowledge of how 4WD and transfer cases work... This "Technical training" manual is actually a marketing document, meant for dealer trainings, meaning it's vague and in this case, borderline wrong. This is what you are referring in the manual:

The agile rear-oriented design is achieved by allowing the M xDrive to bring the front axle to bear only when the rear wheels have reached their limits and additional traction force is required.

and this

In contrast to the rear-based standard all-wheel drive of the BMW VTG control, the BMW M VTG control only applies torque to the front axle after the rear axle exhibits slip and additional drive torque transfer to the rear axle is therefore no longer effective.

I also like this sentence

the new BMW M5 with M xDrive is predictable and easy for the driver to control, so that the superior performance of the Business sedan can be experienced to an even greater degree.

In reality, as I mentioned, in 4WD/4WD Sport, torque is constantly going to the front wheels, unless you are driving above 112mph on the autobahn or in reverse.

Here is what they say on the M3/4 xDrive page

So even in 4WD, the torque is sent to the front only when needed? Or there is always some torque going?

The front axle torque split can go as low as 0% even in 4WD or 4WD Sport mode depending on the actual driving situation - think of steady highway cruising as an example.

Which is again vague and technically correct that it goes to 0%, but they don't tell you the cases, I did The reason they are vague and were even vaguer with the M5 is because they were worried how 4WD in a true M car will be accepted by the consumers.

But whatever, you can feel it yourself and to folks that are scared of driving in 2WD, you are missing on a better experience. If you don't feel a difference in steering, don't drive in 2WD.

[SenorFunkyPants]

The system is obviously much more complicated than the quotes above suggest.
From BMW-m.com
The Central driving dynamics management is the collection point for all the relevant sensor data and the parameters calculated from it, including accelerator pedal position, steering angle, road speed, slip at the front and rear axle, longitudinal and transverse acceleration, friction coefficient, yaw rate, etc. [...]used to activate [...] the Active M Differential and the transfer case in the all-wheel drive system.

[in the threshold range of grip to loss of grip]
let’s say we approach a bend. In the initial braking and steering phase leading up to the turning point we don’t need a powered front axle. Up until that point we generally drive exactly as we would with standard drive. M xDrive doesn't bring in the front axle until we start to accelerate out of the opening bend, when we can transfer longitudinal forces without understeering due to the decreasing transverse acceleration. This occurs gradually, so it’s possible to exit the bend with a slight drift as one would expect of an M automobile.

Originally Posted by Spunky

as I mentioned, in 4WD/4WD Sport, torque is constantly going to the front wheels,

This is simply not true. Are you sure that when you switch to 2wd you aren't also changing the steering setting?

[redcarrera]

I kicked the top off this anthill......lots of great conversation! I hear what everyone has contributed but I don't think there is a clear conclusion.
I've only got 5k miles on my M; I'll continue to evaluate each mode......I was attracted to it because of the various driving modes & I can say they have met my expectations.
Yellowstone Park opens in May & that's always my key for another mountain drive between Colorado & Montana. I'll try more combinations on roads I've driven for decades in lots of great cars.......this is why we love to drive!

[AngryInch]

There is no right or wrong answer, it’s personal preference.

I just can’t stand the “leftists” on here that come with their moral superiority, trying to jam AWD down our throats like we are some danger to society because we clicked 2wd with Nannie’s off. They act like this is some 2000hp rwd go kart.

How do you learn to ride a bike with training wheels on forever? To each their own.

[CosmicCharlie]

Originally Posted by AngryInch

There is no right or wrong answer, it’s personal preference.

I just can’t stand the “leftists” on here that come with their moral superiority, trying to jam AWD down our throats like we are some danger to society because we clicked 2wd with Nannie’s off. They act like this is some 2000hp rwd go kart.

How do you learn to ride a bike with training wheels on forever? To each their own.

Who is "jamming AWD" down anyone's throat 😂? I don't get why you people insist everything is a leftist plot… it's a fkn car forum dude, get a grip!

I was driving in…. dun dun DUNNNNN… 2WD earlier and I couldn't believe that no "leftists" (or anybody for that matter) tried to stop me. Conversely, I didn't feel the need to publicly state that people uncomfortable with rear wheels only are "babies". Probably because I don't live my adult life with a 2nd grader mentality.

[pbonsalb]

I agree it is a free country and we can all drive in RWD if we want. I think some of us wrote that the car drives fine in AWD, is faster in AWD, performs better in AWD in more conditions like cold and rain and snow, and that we just leave it in AWD.

The right wingers, on the other hand, feel compelled to tell us the car is better in RWD and than anyone who does not want to drive in RWD must be a sissy.

Yes, the divisions in this country even split drivers who like the same car into leftists and right wingers. I am going to go drink some horse dewormer to try to make a man out of myself.

[CosmicCharlie]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

I agree it is a free country and we can all drive in RWD if we want. I think some of us wrote that the car drives fine in AWD, is faster in AWD, performs better in AWD in more conditions like cold and rain and snow, and that we just leave it in AWD.

The right wingers, on the other hand, feel compelled to tell us the car is better in RWD and than anyone who does not want to drive in RWD must be a sissy.

Yes, the divisions in this country even split drivers who like the same car into leftists and right wingers. I am going to go drink some horse dewormer to try to make a man out of myself.

Nondenominational higher power speed to you, pbonsalb, lol

[pbonsalb]

I need to start attending the speedaholic anonymous meetings.