DCT review from a 6MT guy

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by radiantm3

That's what BMWCCA instructors teach as well. If you are in the proper driving position/distance from the wheel, you can keep both hands at 9-3 on the wheel for most turns.

I never drive like that.

Some may say and teach that, but it feels awkward to me, for daily driving that is. On the track it could be a different story.

But, these cars are for daily driving. Some of them will get a on road course, but they should design it for daily driving.
I've watched experienced drivers on road courses and it seems most don't hold their hand locked into one position.

I'd probably end up using the lever, as that is what I am accustomed to being a MT driver.

I would think that they could design a paddle system that would allow either option, stationary or synched with the hands.
Simply create a lock mechanism that detaches the paddles from going around. Engage the lock if you want the paddles to move with your hands. Sheesh, it seems they spend so much time and effort into designing and redesigning the iDrive mechanism that they could take a little engineering effort and make the paddles driver adjustable.

[GIGJOHNSON]

Nice write up, Thanks!

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by maxnix

There is a large difference between road or track operation. I would say 99.9999% are operated on roads in daily driving. Track use is a small minority with vastly few cars restricted to exclusively track use.

True on that.

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by RPM90

I never drive like that.

Some may say and teach that, but it feels awkward to me, for daily driving that is. On the track it could be a different story.

But, these cars are for daily driving. Some of them will get a on road course, but they should design it for daily driving.
I've watched experienced drivers on road courses and it seems most don't hold their hand locked into one position.

I'd probably end up using the lever, as that is what I am accustomed to being a MT driver.

I would think that they could design a paddle system that would allow either option, stationary or synched with the hands.
Simply create a lock mechanism that detaches the paddles from going around. Engage the lock if you want the paddles to move with your hands. Sheesh, it seems they spend so much time and effort into designing and redesigning the iDrive mechanism that they could take a little engineering effort and make the paddles driver adjustable.

I think any change in driving habits is awkward for a bit. Doesn't mean it isn't better. Some people like to sit slouched with 1 arm hanging over the wheel. They feel most comfortable driving in that position because they do it daily. Doesn't make it a good driving position. I started holding the hweel at 9-3 and after a few weeks I got used to it and feel so much more in control of the car in more scenarios.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by radiantm3

I think any change in driving habits is awkward for a bit. Doesn't mean it isn't better. Some people like to sit slouched with 1 arm hanging over the wheel. They feel most comfortable driving in that position because they do it daily. Doesn't make it a good driving position. I started holding the hweel at 9-3 and after a few weeks I got used to it and feel so much more in control of the car in more scenarios.

My main driving position is about 10 and 3, not exact but a bit "higher" towards noon.

I drive with both hands on the wheel, except when shifting, and my right hand goes right back after every shift.
Hand position isn't the thing. It's holding that position while daily driving, cause it doesn't work for me.
There are many times I make 90 degree turns, and I can't hold that position with any comfort. Plus, on certain turns, I'd have to hold 1st for a higher rpm if I kept my hand there. Going right, I'd have to shift then get my hand back to past 6 o'clock position.
Going left, I'd have to hold the wheel with my left hand with my elbow pushing into my ribs.

For the street, it's easier and more comfortable.
As I said, on the track I can see the added control, but the turns and road conditions are different too.

[Shawnski]

Originally Posted by Evice

You can not really be serious wanting the paddle stationary not moving with steering wheel. The whole world and a half wants the other way around hence bmw changed it...

When my hands are at 9 and 3 o o'clock position, I barely move them even on tightest turns on street. I would def. not want them be stationary. Track or street it is a discipline not to move your hands unless necessary.

.02

However during autox when you are turning the wheel in tight situations (especially with amount of understeer built into these cars) 90 degrees and beyond, those paddles are a detriment.

Using the gearlever and one hand on the wheel is more effective than having your hands tied up with that wheel trying to shift! If they were mounted to the colum there would be less hand movement than going for the lever between the seats...you would just reach out.

I am not a fan of the paddles on the slushbox 135; sure its great for winding roads, however at the limit and just when you need it the most you have to remove a hand from the wheel anyway.

[Evice]

Originally Posted by Shawnski

However during autox when you are turning the wheel in tight situations (especially with amount of understeer built into these cars) 90 degrees and beyond, those paddles are a detriment.

Using the gearlever and one hand on the wheel is more effective than having your hands tied up with that wheel trying to shift! If they were mounted to the colum there would be less hand movement than going for the lever between the seats...you would just reach out.

I am not a fan of the paddles on the slushbox 135; sure its great for winding roads, however at the limit and just when you need it the most you have to remove a hand from the wheel anyway.

You prefer putting in more steering input on an already understeering car in a corner? These are the feelings you created in me. Good luck in life.

[M34lnch]

Originally Posted by Nox

Am I the only one here that uses the lever over the paddles?

I like the lever too.

[bioslug]

[QUOTE=M34lnch;7951193]I like the lever too.[/QUOT

Am I the only one who ordered a 2011 6MT? I test drove the auto and it was nice and all, but it just wasn't the same and I kept wanting to reach down and down shift at stop lights.

What is the main reason you guys went for the DCT?

[JasonCSU]

Here are a couple of videos showing the "shuffle" method of always bringing your hands back to 9 and 3. This is the method I've been taught for driving on the track, rally-x, curvy mountain roads, etc.

This video is particularly cool because it is Chris Harris demonstrating drifting in an E39 M5.

[Evice]

This is it. Hands never get funny. always clear, always in control etc etc. Everyone does differently, what ever floats your boat.

[MarkR171]

Originally Posted by bioslug

What is the main reason you guys went for the DCT?

Shifts are perfect every time and lightning quick. My hands never leave the wheel. My left foot is free to work the brake making gas/brake transitions quicker. More of my concentration goes to my driving line than transmission.

Also, the shifts are fast enough that the turbo doesn't drop boost on upshifts.

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by MarkR171

My left foot is free to work the brake making gas/brake transitions quicker.

Yup, this is why DCT has an advantage over MT, and why I wanted a 1M with M-DCT......because in almost all top flight motorsport these days, sequential gearboxes/DCT/AMT's etc.,etc are used..... and that's precisely what I wanted to use a 1M for as well as a DD.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by MarkR171

Shifts are perfect every time and lightning quick. My hands never leave the wheel. My left foot is free to work the brake making gas/brake transitions quicker. More of my concentration goes to my driving line than transmission.

Also, the shifts are fast enough that the turbo doesn't drop boost on upshifts.

I'll buy the boost doesn't drop as much as with a MT, but it drops.
Put a good boost gauge on it and take a look

The DCT MUST decouple the engine from the trans even for it's ultra fast shifts, but it must still decouple. That will drop boost, even if less than an MT.
Still, how much boost drops in an MT depends also on the driver.
The Step is constant coupled with the torque converter, so it can claim the least boost drop, if any.

I've never experienced shifting as removing my concentration away from the coming corner. It's just part of driving.
I do like the feeling of a DSG, DCT, or Step coming to a corner. Better?
Nah. Just different.
I mean, do I not walk as well, and trip more often when I'm chewing gum at the same time? No.

We all have different levels of coordination, which also explains why some people are professional race car drivers and most are not.
BTW, I'm not a pro driver, but I play guitar very well, and I'm not a bad drummer either.

[MarkR171]

Originally Posted by RPM90

I'll buy the boost doesn't drop as much as with a MT, but it drops.
Put a good boost gauge on it and take a look

Check the data from Vishnu's PROcede development. Since the DCT does not lift throttle on manual upshifts, the boost does not drop.

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Below a datalog of one of our recent test runs. You can see how quickly the transmission shifts gears. And how no boost is lost when doing so. Pretty amazing. Can't say too much more at this point. But perhaps we'll post some more videos later this week demonstrating how far along we are. I promised we would get up to speed quickly with the n55, didn't I?



Cheers
shiv

[GaryS]

Originally Posted by maxnix

BMW teaches the 9 and 3 position also, but no way I or most other non-contortionists could keep the hands there on a 90° turn.

Yes you could, easily. When I took a high performance class with ten other ordinary dorks, every one of us got it right without trouble.

[Frustration]

Originally Posted by MarkR171

Check the data from Vishnu's PROcede development. Since the DCT does not lift throttle on manual upshifts, the boost does not drop.

Thats a great post...

I like listening to all the whinging about manual being better depending on the driver...

Not saying it's not more enjoyable for some, but the bullshit has to stop at some point and data like this helps.


Yes, it's missing a clutch pedal. But as one of the folks that's gone from a 135 MT to an 11' DCT I can tell you the arguement is about personal pref FAAAAAAR more than it is about the claims of fantastic stick skills.

The DCT works very well. It functions on demand and or automatically and while there are always situational considerations to argue, most of this gets back to fragile ego... which is in no short supply round here...

[Frustration]

Originally Posted by maxnix

There is a large difference between road or track operation. I would say 99.9999% are operated on roads in daily driving. Track use is a small minority with vastly few cars restricted to exclusively track use.

That's not a bad assumtion even in track use. The number of times you have a snap 180 or extremely narrow 90 is a very small portion of anyone's driving.

9 and 3 doesnt mean 100% of the time, but it relates to a heavy enough percentage to still be enough of an overwhelming majority to make some of the complaining amount to arguement for arguements sake.

[GaryS]

Originally Posted by maxnix

I am not talking about clipping apexes, but making an actual 90° change of direction turn.

Yes, so am I. Like turning at an intersection. It's easy.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by MarkR171

Check the data from Vishnu's PROcede development. Since the DCT does not lift throttle on manual upshifts, the boost does not drop.

Yes, I read that. I'm quite impressed, and now better educated.
I retract my comment.

Technically, there is no throttle with valvetronic, in the traditional sense.
But, there has to be some reduction, or the shifts wouldn't be that smooth.
Imagine your WFO and the shift goes 1-2, if there were no reduction in "throttle", even as fast as the DCT is, there would be rpm surge as the next clutch reengages, and the shift would feel awkward, like a bad MT shift.

I see that "throttle" is at 100%, but, is that an indication of pedal throttle, or what?
I've driven dual clutches and automatics, and yes, the throttle pedal can be to the floor. But, what the ECU does is a different matter, as the pedal is simply drive by wire.

I'm open to being wrong on that though.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Frustration

Thats a great post...

I like listening to all the whinging about manual being better depending on the driver...

Not saying it's not more enjoyable for some, but the bullshit has to stop at some point and data like this helps.


Yes, it's missing a clutch. But as one of the folks that's gone from a 135 MT to an 11' DCT I can tell you the arguement is about personal pref FAAAAAAR more than it is about the claims of fantastic stick skills.

The DCT works very well. It functions on demand and or automatically and while there are always situational considerations to argue, most of this gets back to fragile ego... which is in no short supply round here...

What should stop is the constant derogatory comments by DCT owners, who've taken the exceptional built-in shift ability of the DCT, as their own skill.

Nearly all of the MT drivers on this forum do NOT argue about how good/great the DCT is at doing it's thing.
What MT drivers try to explain is SIMPLY that MT gives them more enjoyment.

If there is anything related to ego, it's that some DCT owners have had theirs blown up out of proportion.