Suspension Upgrades for DD Ride Quality

[churchillps]

Car is starting to get up there in milage and I'm beginning to notice more road feedback/bumps on my daily commutes. Would like to get ahead of it and make some changes to improve ride quality.

I figured coilovers would be the place to start but most seem super track focused with pretty rough spring rates.

Any suggestions would be appreciated!

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by churchillps

Car is starting to get up there in milage and I'm beginning to notice more road feedback/bumps on my daily commutes. Would like to get ahead of it and make some changes to improve ride quality.

I figured coilovers would be the place to start but most seem super track focused with pretty rough spring rates.

Any suggestions would be appreciated!

Are you edc? If you are and you want to keep edc then your options are limited. What are you looking for - street or dual street-track or primarily track?

High-end MCS, Moton, Ohlins TTX, Nitron, etc. you can specify the spring rates. There are three versions of the Ohlins R&Ts - standard, dedicated track and street (3DM and Turner offer these). KW V3 has softer rates and it’s an entry level setup. KW CS kits are their track kits. Bilstein PSS10 is a street damper and their CS is primarily track use

EDC coilover options, in increasing cost, Bilstein B16, KW DDC, Tractive Touring and Nitron e-tron R1.

OEM or OEM+ upgrades are Bilstein B4, B6 or B8. B6 and B8 are offered in non-edc and edc. B6 and B8 are the same except B8 is designed for lowering springs

[churchillps]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Are you edc? If you are and you want to keep edc then your options are limited. What are you looking for - street or dual street-track or primarily track?

High-end MCS, Moton, Ohlins TTX, Nitron, etc. you can specify the spring rates. There are three versions of the Ohlins R&Ts - standard, dedicated track and street (3DM and Turner offer these). KW V3 has softer rates and it’s an entry level setup. KW CS kits are their track kits. Bilstein PSS10 is a street damper and their CS is primarily track use

EDC coilover options, in increasing cost, Bilstein B16, KW DDC, Tractive Touring and Nitron e-tron R1.

OEM or OEM+ upgrades are Bilstein B4, B6 or B8. B6 and B8 are offered in non-edc and edc. B6 and B8 are the same except B8 is designed for lowering springs

I do have EDC -- looking for street only. Should I look at anything other than coilovers or just start there?

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by churchillps

I do have EDC -- looking for street only. Should I look at anything other than coilovers or just start there?

Coilovers are KW DDT, Bilstein PS10/B16 Damptronic, Tractive Touring or Nitron e-tron R1. EDIT - forgot to mention the Nitron Roadsport which is less expensive than the e-Tron R1 and are the direct competitor to the Tractive Touring.

Bilstein B6 or B8 Damptronic versions are solid as dampers only. The B6 would reuse stock springs and the B8 would use Eibach, H&R, etc. Evolve has developed their own B6 but early reviews suggest they are harsh and one person had two front struts fail in < 8k miles.

[mike@x-ph.com]

i recommend adjustable springs for a street car and coilovers for a track car

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

i recommend adjustable springs for a street car and coilovers for a track car

Adjustable springs, HAS kits, are a joke on a stock suspension that has limited travel to begin with and uses the bump stops to limit suspension travel. Lowering the car my more than 10 mm and installing shorter and more highly progressive bump stops makes the already marginal ride quality suffer. Depending on how much the car is loaded, you are either riding the stiffer bump stops more frequently or are 100% of the time riding on the stiffer bump stops. People who say the HAS kit improved the performance/handling of their cars either have no understanding of ride quality or are fooling themselves to justify their purchase. Show me one quantitative case where the HAS kit reduced lap times attributed to the HAS kit only.

The Ohlins R&T is the best street option and an ok beginning track setup that will quickly be outgrown.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Adjustable springs, HAS kits, are a joke on a stock suspension that has limited travel to begin with and uses the bump stops to limit suspension travel. Lowering the car my more than 10 mm and installing shorter and more highly progressive bump stops makes the already marginal ride quality suffer. Depending on how much the car is loaded, you are either riding the stiffer bump stops more frequently or are 100% of the time riding on the stiffer bump stops. People who say the HAS kit improved the performance/handling of their cars either have no understanding of ride quality or are fooling themselves to justify their purchase. Show me one quantitative case where the HAS kit reduced lap times attributed to the HAS kit only.

The Ohlins R&T is the best street option and an ok beginning track setup that will quickly be outgrown.

So people that disagree with you even though they are using the kits themselves are idiots, got it


Ohlins are the best you can get, and if it's a track car or money is not an issue, you should get it. If that is not the case, on the street, I think you can get adjustable springs just like I use on all my street cars; it will lower the car and make it handle better (for street use, not track). You can respect my opinion and share yours, or call me and everyone who agrees with me an idiot.

Also, im a vendor of Ohlins, and i obviously will make a lot more money if you buy coilover kits instead of adjustable springs, so im more than happy to sell my customers Ohlins all-day

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

So people that disagree with you even though they are using the kits themselves are idiots, got it


Ohlins are the best you can get, and if it's a track car or money is not an issue, you should get it. If that is not the case, on the street, I think you can get adjustable springs just like I use on all my street cars; it will lower the car and make it handle better (for street use, not track). You can respect my opinion and share yours, or call me and everyone who agrees with me an idiot.

Also, im a vendor of Ohlins, and i obviously will make a lot more money if you buy coilover kits instead of adjustable springs, so im more than happy to sell my customers Ohlins all-day

I don’t recall using the word idiot once, you did several times, and I did say a lot of it depends on how much the car has been lowered. Everything I stated is true about the stock suspension. BMW MPHAS only allows a 10 mm drop if you want to maintain the factory warranty (no longer applies unless you bought one of the last F8x). There’s a reason the limited the change in ride height. I’m aware of at least 25 owners who originally had a HAS kit and switched to a KW v3 or Ohlins R&T and immediately noticed how poorly their HAS car performed across all suspension categories. Go measure the difference between your bump stop and the top of the strut body or better yet put a zip tie (just tight enough so it can slide without sliding under gravity) around the piston rod at the top of your strut, drive around and see where it ends up.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

I don’t recall using the word idiot once, you did several times, and I did say a lot of it depends on how much the car has been lowered. Everything I stated is true about the stock suspension. BMW MPHAS only allows a 10 mm drop if you want to maintain the factory warranty (no longer applies unless you bought one of the last F8x). There’s a reason the limited the change in ride height. I’m aware of at least 25 owners who originally had a HAS kit and switched to a KW v3 or Ohlins R&T and immediately noticed how poorly their HAS car performed across all suspension categories. Go measure the difference between your bump stop and the top of the strut body or better yet put a zip tie (just tight enough so it can slide without sliding under gravity) around the piston rod at the top of your strut, drive around and see where it ends up.

That's what you said "People who say the HAS kit improved the performance/handling of their cars either have no understanding of ride quality" which pretty much means people who disagree with you dont know what they are talking about.

But that's not the point; we disagree on this, and that's fine. If you dont agree with me, that does not mean you dont know what you are talking about; it just means we disagree on a car part discussion. Not a big deal.

That said, I gave my opinion from my personal experience with cars with HAS kits for over 15 years and tens of thousands of customers with these kits.

People are welcome to listen to it or buy the more expensive coilovers. as I stated previously, I make a lot more money if they buy these kits, so please keep preaching

[RElias21]

I have a Comp.

I had MP-HAS on OE Dampers for about 2 years.
I remember when I first installed them, I felt that they were more comfortable that the OE springs.

I never felt that they were uncomfortable, but the car did feel crashy.

One thing you can/should do is code to CS EDC, which generally appears to assist with “comfort”.

About 3-4 months ago, I upgraded to the Bilstein-Evolve Dampers and the MSS HAS springs.
These retain EDC compatibility.
The Bilstein-Evolve dampers were designed to broaden the spectrum between comfort, sport and sport+ modes, relative to the original Bilstein B6 dampers.
So, while I have not tried the original Bilstein B6 dampers myself, if you wanted to go that route, I would recommend you select the Bilstein-Evolve version based on the premise of their existence.

These Bilstein-Evolve dampers are def LESS crashy than the OE dampers. They passed the wife test for sure. She thought the car got more comfortable.

As for springs, you can pair with any lowering spring or even OE spring.
The Eibachs appears to be a popular pairing with these dampers.

If you want height adjustable springs, MSS-HAS is the only option with the Bilstein-Evolve dampers.
I believe MSS-HAS is actually made by Eibach as well.

Historically, KW DDC Coilovers have been identified as one of the most “comfort” oriented EDC compatible coilovers. They come with a price tag though - I think around $4500.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

That's what you said "People who say the HAS kit improved the performance/handling of their cars either have no understanding of ride quality" which pretty much means people who disagree with you dont know what they are talking about.

But that's not the point; we disagree on this, and that's fine. If you dont agree with me, that does not mean you dont know what you are talking about; it just means we disagree on a car part discussion. Not a big deal.

That said, I gave my opinion from my personal experience with cars with HAS kits for over 15 years and tens of thousands of customers with these kits.

People are welcome to listen to it or buy the more expensive coilovers. as I stated previously, I make a lot more money if they buy these kits, so please keep preaching

That doesn’t say I called you or them an idiot. A lot of people can’t properly describe or distinguish between good or bad ride quality. There are people running BC coilovers which are total garage and have the worst, harshest ride quality yet people say it’s better than stock which is laughable. If you think I used the word idiot and it was directed at you then perhaps I’ve touched on a soft spot. Regardless of whether you tried to talk more people into buying a $3.2k R&T, it won’t work because people already believe $1.5k is expensive and, because of statements from people like you, they believe they don’t need it because the HAS will perform just as well. Enjoy your HAS kit but if you were able to drive a car with a proper suspension, not the R&T, say something like an Ohlins TTX, then you’d realize how inferior your HAS setup is.

[DeTh]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

That doesn’t say I called you or them an idiot. A lot of people can’t properly describe or distinguish between good or bad ride quality. There are people running BC coilovers which are total garage and have the worst, harshest ride quality yet people say it’s better than stock which is laughable. If you think I used the word idiot and it was directed at you then perhaps I’ve touched on a soft spot. Regardless of whether you tried to talk more people into buying a $3.2k R&T, it won’t work because people already believe $1.5k is expensive and, because of statements from people like you, they believe they don’t need it because the HAS will perform just as well. Enjoy your HAS kit but if you were able to drive a car with a proper suspension, not the R&T, say something like an Ohlins TTX, then you’d realize how inferior your HAS setup is.

I've driven my friends car with MCS, I have KW DDC, and I've driven a car with HAS. There is a pretty big difference between HAS and full coilover setups in my experience, especially at the limit.

[WillemM4C]

I have ordered a Intrax 1k2 with arc coil over set for my m4 comp! Cant wait!

Made a test drive with a g80 on Intrax 1k2, unbelievable difference to stock, the car feels 200kg lighter instantaneously.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by DeTh

I've driven my friends car with MCS, I have KW DDC, and I've driven a car with HAS. There is a pretty big difference between HAS and full coilover setups in my experience, especially at the limit.

Agreed. I have three MCS 2WR setups with different rates on all three depending on the amount of track usage. I’ve ridden in HAS cars but never driven one. I’ve been in the mild drop (follow BMW 10 mm max drop front and rear), moderate drop (10-15 mm) and severe (>= 20 or max possible drop). You can easily feel, and sometimes hear, the crashing on the suspension at severe, it’s less frequent on moderate, and barely noticeable. Handling feels equal to stock at mild and gets worse with increased level of lowering. It’s clear when HAS owners, and retailers, say “it’s great” tells you they’ve never driven a property setup car on high-end coilovers. R&T is not a high-end damper but it’s a great street damper and can’t handle drivers who are fast on track. As an entry level track setup, sure, but once you’re solidly in the intermediate or advanced groups, the R&T is holding you back. It adjusts both rebound and compression in the same direction but most braking zones and corners require different directions of rebound and compression damping, usually in opposite directions.

[imperfectluck]

Agreed with M3SQRD, if I’m ever touching suspension I’m putting on coils or nothing at all. I will never understand the springs without proper damping as suspension in itself is a geometry balancing act.

I don’t track as often as I’d like anymore yet just in normal day to day driving it gave the confidence going into corners that at least the stock F87 suspension was nervous about.

If you’re going to fuck around and find out on a car that you take pride in, at least do the setup the right way.

The companies listed above are aware of it and have non track focused setups for this exact reason.

If it’s expensive today, put the money aside and ideally a tomorrow will arrive where thay saved money amounts to what you desired.

[FaRKle!]

Whatever you do, make sure it has flat ride spring rates. Non-flat ride will require higher damping (overdamped) forces to control pitching, making the ride more harsh.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by FaRKle!

Whatever you do, make sure it has flat ride spring rates. Non-flat ride will require higher damping (overdamped) forces to control pitching, making the ride more harsh.

All MCS 2/3/4WR with rear coilover and divorced setups, Nitron R1 and R3 with rear coilover and divorced setups, Moton 2/3WR with rear coilover and divorced setups, Ohlins TTX with rear coilover and divorced setups (not all setups), Intrax, KW Motorsport, etc. all use non-flat ride setups yet they have spectacular ride quality and do not require absurd levels of damping to control the rear. Does any decent coilover manufacturer offer a flat ride setup? KW CS and f82 GTS doesn’t use flat ride setups as well. I currently have three MCS 2WR damper setups and on the street the damper settings are not higher than six (18 clicks fully closed) and I do not have a single issue with the rear pitching wildly or even at all. I do know lower-end dampers have a terrible time controlling non-flat ride. Don’t make blanket statements when virtually all high-end damper manufacturers do not use flat ride spring rates. They must know a thing or two about suspension setups.

[FaRKle!]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

All MCS 2/3/4WR with rear coilover and divorced setups, Nitron R1 and R3 with rear coilover and divorced setups, Moton 2/3WR with rear coilover and divorced setups, Ohlins TTX with rear coilover and divorced setups (not all setups), Intrax, KW Motorsport, etc. all use non-flat ride setups yet they have spectacular ride quality and do not require absurd levels of damping to control the rear. Does any decent coilover manufacturer offer a flat ride setup? KW CS and f82 GTS doesn’t use flat ride setups as well. I currently have three MCS 2WR damper setups and on the street the damper settings are not higher than six (18 clicks fully closed) and I do not have a single issue with the rear pitching wildly or even at all. I do know lower-end dampers have a terrible time controlling non-flat ride. Don’t make blanket statements when virtually all high-end damper manufacturers do not use flat ride spring rates. They must know a thing or two about suspension setups.

And none of those coilovers prioritize street manners/DD ride quality that the OP is asking for...

The fact of the matter is, you need higher damping forces to counter secondary/tertiary motions that a pitch setup produces versus one with flat ride that naturally settles faster. Motorsport setups don't prioritize comfort, and prioritize roll/dive control via springs. Furthermore, no coilover manufacture wants to tell their customers that they should buy additional hardware like sway bars to control roll further. KW actually does spec some of their coilovers with flat ride.

And last time I spoke to MCS on the phone they actually didn't care what springs somebody used and said "We just leave that up to our distributors. All we provide are dampers. Your retailer will recommend whatever springs they want to." Frankly, a lot of places haven't even tested flat ride (the standards of engineering in the automotive aftermarket segment are pretty garbage).

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by FaRKle!

And none of those coilovers prioritize street manners/DD ride quality that the OP is asking for...

The fact of the matter is, you need higher damping forces to counter secondary/tertiary motions that a pitch setup produces versus one with flat ride that naturally settles faster. Motorsport setups don't prioritize comfort, and prioritize roll/dive control via springs. Furthermore, no coilover manufacture wants to tell their customers that they should buy additional hardware like sway bars to control roll further. KW actually does spec some of their coilovers with flat ride.

And last time I spoke to MCS on the phone they actually didn't care what springs somebody used and said "We just leave that up to our distributors. All we provide are dampers. Your retailer will recommend whatever springs they want to." Frankly, a lot of places haven't even tested flat ride (the standards of engineering in the automotive aftermarket segment are pretty garbage).

Actually, a standard off-the-shelf MCS 2WR with non-flat ride spring rates, can be extremely compliant yet still perform well. My wife’s DD has F/R 500/800 lbf/in with 100 psi can pressure + R3 & C2 and it rides way better than any stock vehicle I’ve been in including non-BMWs. Yes, MCS doesn’t care but not a single person who purchased them for street-use only don’t run flat ride rates. Regardless, MCS 2WR with F/R 700/1100 lbf/in will outperform your R&T dampers in ride quality and performance. They can be track biased yet still run civilized on the street. KW street dampers, including the V3, don’t have any flat ride offerings. I’d there any pre-assembled street damper setups that run flat ride spring rates. IIRC, you don’t/didn’t run flat ride rates with your R&T setup for years - is that correct? Ohlins R&T don’t come with flat ride rates either. The R&T is a great street damper but doesn’t perform well on track if you’re pushing hard. R & C settings always adjusted together in the same direction results in severely compromised setups. Does a flat ride setup, always provide a flat ride under all types of suspension excitation? If flat ride is superior, why does no manufacturer offer it off the shelf?

[noemon]

I wrote this for m3cutters and it applies aptly in here, no offense inteended for anybody here just my 2 cents on the setups I've used over the years:

Hey everyone, I thought to share my input from a variety of suspensions I own as well as others that I have tried over the years.



First things first, I am not a track racer, I daily the M3, pick the kids from and to the school and use it every year to roadtrip in Europe with the wife and 3 kiddies(16,14,10 y.o).



So what I require from my car is good damping, not to chase the miliseconds in Silverstone nor to lower the car in Uganda level road surfacing(which is where we at in the UK) and that has guided my purchases over the years so...



1) Stock comp or non-comp Suspension with CS coding = Total Pita. Car feels like a 1998 Fiat Punto, no idea why BMW opted for this cheap suspension but it is truly terrible, funny thing is people get used to it and don't really get how bad it is until they try something that is actually good.

2) MPHAS Kit = Total pita in a poo bun. Same suspension as above but with M-perf tax added on it, only gain is lower ride height and slightly better cornering but same kind of damping crap as pure stock. My advice is avoid.

3) BC BR Racing coilover with external reservoirs: Significant upgrade from all of the above, which brings me to my point, if you want something cheap, go for BR BC Racing and take your time to dial the coilovers in correctly. It is aeons better than stock or mphas kit both for comfort and performance. Car starts feeling more like a proper high-end car but not quite. It is on the stiff side and performance wise while better than stock, it is nowhere near the more high-end stuff available.

4) KW V3 Clubsports, this is a great high-quality coilover, not very comfortable but very well damped and very good performance, car feels like its on rails, niggles are that you get some clunks from the monoballs and you can't really use this for grand touring in Europe as it gets tiring after a couple of hours of driving.

5) Tractive Touring, TRANSFORMATIVE, literally. Feels like you just bought another car. It's quite unreal because it is extremely comfortable, feels like Bentley or Rolls type of plush, and at the same time it's a track weapon more capable than the stiff Clubsports. How did they manage this? They say it's their valve reaction time, whatever it is, it is pure magic. Comfort as a Bentley and more capable than dedicated track cars and supercars. No exaggerating here. We've compared the ride of my car with my mates Ferrari 812, Lambo Huracan Performante, McLaren 570s and lots of other cars, and they all agreed that the Tractive Touring was so good, most of them bought it for their cars too. For me this is the ultimate mod, as nothing I have added to the car has transformed my experience with it in such a profound way. In addition, it is the ultimate grand touring setup, have spent 12 hours driving the car on one go, that was Cambridge-Cannes without issue. Also drove Brescia-Calais, which is 700miles in 6 hours in the daytime (average speed 120mph stops for fuel included). However it has come with its bad sides, warranty claims are snail paced as is servicing. Customer support is not that great.

6) Intrax 1k2 with ARC & Black Titan, even better than Tractive. High quality non-EDC coilover, at -18 clicks you are in plush comfort secured by bullet-proof shocks, at -14 clicks you got a track weapon with unparalleled compliance. ARC allows you to run softer springs so I am running, 32n/mm front, 92 n/mm rear and I have the best comfort ever experienced as well as the strongest track performance I have ever had out of a coilover. This edges the Tractive.


Honourable mentions:

MCS, have heard amazing feedback for comfortability and track-ability.

Nitron R1 and e-tron. Haven't rode this but have heard good stuff for the R1 and R3, no feedback for the e-tron collection yet. If anyone has it, please share your thoughts.

[swagon]

Originally Posted by churchillps

Car is starting to get up there in milage and I'm beginning to notice more road feedback/bumps on my daily commutes. Would like to get ahead of it and make some changes to improve ride quality.

I figured coilovers would be the place to start but most seem super track focused with pretty rough spring rates.

Any suggestions would be appreciated!

Well, this thread is missing answers to a couple key questions:

Any reason not wanting to stay with OE suspension? What are your intentions with the car?

Don't buy aftermarket suspension components just for the sake of it.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by swagon

Well, this thread is missing answers to a couple key questions:

Any reason not wanting to stay with OE suspension? What are your intentions with the car?

Don't buy aftermarket suspension components just for the sake of it.

One thing you can do with aftermarket dampers is run identical spring rates as stock and that’s what noemon did with his Tractive and Intrax setups. So you maintain the stockish ride quality yet have far superior dampers controlling them which actually makes the suspension feel more compliant overall. This will produce a reasonable flat-ride setup.

The problem with a flat-ride setup even if you run a reasonable front rate of 400 lbf/in, you’ll need at least a 1200 lbf/in rear spring which is solidly in rear dedicated track rates. Another option is you need to run stock-like rates ~180 lbf/in and ~585 lbf/in which, again, is what noemon did. F/R 250-300/750-900 would be a reasonable street-biased setup with a tolerable rear rate that could still be used for a few track days per year as long as you’re not trying to set the fastest track times possible.