04-19-2018, 06:17 PM | #23 | |
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That said, I find your focus on the tire brand a bit overblown given how different the cars are. Not just weight and torque (as you stated) but also the AWD setup, torque delivery and the real engine output which varies significantly from the published numbers. AMG's in the US are also randomly delivered with P-Zeros... |
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04-19-2018, 07:08 PM | #24 |
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Can you spot the fanboys?
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04-19-2018, 09:17 PM | #25 |
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Guys perhaps what we need is M5's with Michelin and Pirellis on test and see what are the differences between them.
Some of us assumes the Michelins will be much faster but is it actually the case? |
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04-19-2018, 10:39 PM | #26 | ||
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"After all, both the Pirelli P Zeros (BMW: 275/35 ZR20, 285/35 ZR20) and the Continental SportContacts (Mercedes: 265/35 ZR20, 295/30 ZR20) need a hot, grippy surface to demonstrate their superglue talents. That’s grippy and hot like at the Autodromo do Estoril where you can brake car lengths later and step back on the gas seconds earlier than on the winding E10-1 public highway. According to the official data sheets, the E63 S weighs 1880 kilos and is thus only a token 25 kilos heavier than the new M5. Yet first impressions after a couple of spirited laps reveal that the all-in BMW does indeed feel a tad lighter and thus a tick more agile than the fully loaded Mercedes-AMG." https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-re...n-test-review/ |
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04-19-2018, 11:13 PM | #27 | |
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Again - I stated the same thing above. My point is simple - tires are both something that can be controlled to rule out their affect and are critical to (especially) a smaller, tight road course. In testing is best not to increase variables - but to decrease them. Therefore we can best see which setup - the E63S or the M5 - is superior. |
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04-19-2018, 11:16 PM | #28 |
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I can only go by the testing I have seen - and in most cases - the PS4 shod cars have been consistently better. From personal experience I can also state that the Michelin's have been better than Pirelli tires - depending on the tire and application.
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04-19-2018, 11:23 PM | #29 |
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Not as easily as those who don't have BMW's and have a gripe to share.
I welcome anyone to highlight where my bias is showing. I have and still do discuss my cars weaknesses at length. In fact - for my first GM car - a C7Z I helped to get GM to "fix" their heat soak issue (they didn't) and took major flaming from the extremely devout Corvette community for almost a year - until they saw the facts (and class action lawsuits) for what it was. The C7 platform in general - under-performed and is only now - through modding (and maybe the C7 ZR1) - starting to show its potential almost 5 years later. That is the way it goes sometimes with the cars we buy. Me getting a BMW - after my last E63S - holds no brand loyalty. Right now it is the superior performing car. Not by much - but it is - straight line and definitely on a road course. Most tests have confirmed this. I will likely near never road course my car - but it doesn't change that fact. They are both solid performers and have insane performance for what they are; luxury GT cruisers. |
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04-20-2018, 12:39 AM | #30 | |||
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04-20-2018, 03:48 AM | #31 |
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Thanks to Ferrari we all know the press car vs. customer car reality.
My only gripe is that now the first non-press numbers are being mentioned, they are definitely not C&D numbers. At this moment the only properly filmed races (track and drag) we have are Auto Express and CarWow. I'm ignoring the South African one as, just like you mention, they don't actually mention any of the variables - no distance, time, speed, dash shots, seems like the guy is shifting manually, jumping starts etc. etc. CarWow is a dealership comparison website, when they take cars on the drag in UK, they take customer/dealer cars. Secondly, the Sochi F1 customer day thing is the first event that I know of (maybe there was one in US) where it isn't strictly press focused. There the feedback was underwhelming about the engine and breaks, and people were pissed off that BMW banned VBoxs ahahah. The one VBox time they did allow was pretty poor and pretty much matches the CarWow time. With the E63s it was the opposite, the first customer cars were pulling 2.9s to 60 (or 3.1 to 100km/h), consistently. This made me respect AMG a bit more (I used to think only drug dealers and arms dealers had AMGs). |
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04-20-2018, 05:23 AM | #32 | |
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C & D's acceleration numbers for cars incl AMGs are quicker, this you should know. Btw, the highlighted portion of your post above makes me wonder ... How about posting a photo of your E63S outside your home so that we can admire it |
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04-20-2018, 05:48 AM | #33 | |
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I would happily share a photo of my car if it weren't for a completely unique "paint job" from which you can find out about my whole life. |
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04-20-2018, 05:59 AM | #34 |
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For those that complain about tyres:
http://www.evo.co.uk/volkswagen/golf...-test/page/0/6 The new PZ4s were the fastest around wet and dry circuits. So BMW UK do seems to know a thing or two. |
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04-20-2018, 07:59 AM | #35 |
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AMG's are God's gift to mankind. There. Mission accomplished. You made us see the light....
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04-20-2018, 08:32 AM | #36 |
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04-20-2018, 10:00 AM | #37 |
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How many times does the E63S have to beat the F90 in order for people to really accept it? Maybe as many as it takes to get to the center of a tootsie pop? E63S is a beast. Never have been an AMG fan but I'm drinking this new Kool Aid and it's good.
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04-20-2018, 11:05 AM | #38 | |
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http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article...-Tyre-Test.htm where the difference in dry braking was 0.1m (35.3 m for the Pirelli) and PS4S was overall the top tyre. See the wet braking and difference in handling too. Now, see also Sport Auto's test http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article...-Tyre-Test.htm and what they said "Dry braking is a key advantage for track day tyres, which have a softer compound and less tread pattern to increase the tyres contact patch with the road." Here, the PS4S performed better substantially better for dry braking 34.4m vs 35.2m and was the overall top tyre. See the wet braking and difference in handling too. ps btw, you do recall your initial point was that the Pirelli performed better in the cold Last edited by bm323; 04-20-2018 at 11:27 AM.. |
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04-20-2018, 11:49 AM | #40 | |
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"Fastest around the lap was the Pirelli, in 84.13sec, just over a second faster than the second-placed Michelin (85.27sec). They both felt grippy and exploitable, but subjectively the Michelin was preferred. It offered lots of grip and tactile feedback, letting you know how hard you were pushing. You could be accurate with it, turn-in was crisp and the rear would swing because the front was so hooked up. The Pirelli gave a less complete performance, feeling distinctly average in a straight line but great when turning. The rear was loose but the front found the mid-corner traction to pull the car out of corners like no other. Uncanny. Not the best feel but undeniably effective." "Unusually, the same tyre sets the pace in the dry as it did in the wet – the Pirelli. And, as in the wet, the second-placed tyre, the Michelin, felt better to drive. It gave the best steering feel – sharp, connected, direct – and although there was some adjustability it wasn’t needed because it turned in so well, held the line and took power early. It gets the best out of the Golf and is quiet, too. The Pirelli does everything the Michelin does – finds every apex, hugs the line, drives out of turns well and isn’t noisy – but is let down by dulling the steering and being less engaging." Yes, I did say the tyres perform better in cold/moist because that is what I read. Now, low and behold the Pirelli performed over a second faster in the wet than the Michelin. And in the dry.....0.14s. So yes, it seems like on a circuit they are faster. They also out stopped the Michelin by a whole.......10cm The Michelins won the comparison simply because they got a higher score in aquaplaning and for steering feel (which the M5 lacks anyway). |
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04-20-2018, 12:21 PM | #42 | |
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So now you are just talking about performance in the wet, not in the cold. Well, Sport Auto states that the Michelin beats the Pirelli in both wet handling and wet braking. Btw, I'm not surprised you likely don't own a E63S; a fanboy of the E63S yes, owner of a Merc yes |
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04-20-2018, 12:28 PM | #44 | |
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